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Ursel Brown
November 10, 2021, 10 am
Interviewer: Fulton County Schools Archives, Teaching Museum South, Hapeville, Georgia
Interviewee: College Park, Georgia
Interview conducted via Microsoft Teams
Ursel (Miller) Brown is a native of College Park, having attended both J.F. Beavers Elementary School
and Eva Thomas High School, graduating from the latter in 1970 – part of the last graduating class at
that school. After graduation, Brown worked with the US Army Recruiters locally and served as a
College Park City Council member.
Mike Santrock (MS):
So first of all, thanks for sharing your time with us. Uh, and I guess we'll just go ahead and get
started with… Tell us about your background, your childhood, and your family, your parents,
grandparents, any siblings. So, we'll start there.
Ursel Brown (UB):
OK. Uhm… My household consisted of four children. My parents, Reverend Joseph and Lottie Miller,
my grandparents, Deacon Eugene and Alice Hunt. And me and my brother Daniel, Carl and
Henrietta, my sister. Uhm, we all grew up in College Park. My mother was involved with the College
Park Voters League. And she was an activist. Of course, she was also with EOA at that time which
was... Economic Atlanta? My father worked for what is now… was Macy’s, but was Rich’s back then.
My grandfather was a carpenter. And my grandmother was a stay-at-home grandmother. She took
care of everything when everybody else was out.
We came home from school. We had hot meals and there was no such thing as McDonald's and
Burger King. Uh, we had chores. Yeah, you came home, you did your homework, you did your
chores, and everybody sat down at 5:30 or 6 o'clock and we all had dinner. There was no I don't
want to eat this and no TV… everybody sat down at the table.
MS:
So everybody that you just spoke of you all lived in the same house.
UB:
We all lived in the same house. Most of the families in College Park. That's how they lived.
MS:
Yeah. OK, so, you know, I've been to College Park of but I'm not, you know, real familiar with it, and
probably most of our researchers and maybe a lot of students who see this and hear this aren't
familiar. If you were to talk to somebody who'd never been there, um… how would you? How would
you describe College Park while you were growing up at the age you're talking about?
UB:
OK. College Park, the area I lived in, was directly behind City Hall… um, from Princeton Ave.
MS:
Did that area, I'm sorry, did that area have a name? That part of...
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�UB:
Um, that was Main Street. We were right, we were on the other side of Main Street. In fact, College
Park was divided, you know College Park got his name because of the name of the colleges. Conley,
Harvard and all of that. Well, you had a West Harvard which was the side I lived on. And then you
had the east side, which is over by the MARTA station? And I think that's College Park Presbyterian
Church, right there at the MARTA station… that was the east side.
So, it was West side was the black side. East side was the white side. And there was directly behind
City Hall.
MS:
So, were there places that you would frequent as a child growing up, particular hangouts or places
that your parents or grandparents took you?
UB:
Well, the local hangout for everybody was Mack’s Drive-In, which was down at the bottom of
Harvard Ave, which was right beside the old Goode Brother’s chicken processing plant. That was
the local hangout for most of us. Then we had a little area on… uh, Princeton. It was a store there.
We used to hang out. And then there was of course Brady’s Gym, that was the main hang out.
MS:
Was this a hang out with friends or just your siblings or…?
UB:
Well friends, all of us, because all of us knew each other. All of our siblings knew other siblings. So,
it was a community thing.
MS:
So, speaking of community, and since you know we are the school system archives. Um, so our focus
today will be kind of on education, uh… that you received back when you were a child. So, let's go
back to your first memories as a student. Where did you attend school? Uh, earliest bit of scheme.
UB:
Well, right, I attended JF Beavers Elementary School. Uh, which is now College Park Elementary, but
that's where I attended. Uh, kindergarten, yeah kindergarten through the 7th grade. At that time
schools went from first… I'm sorry… from 1st to 7th grade. And from 7th grade we went to high
school.
Uh, all of us… all of the kids in the community, that's where we went to school before they split us
up and half of us went to JF Beavers and then the other half went to Sophie M. Avery, which is over
off of Yale Ave, where the old Lottie Miller apartments used to be.
MS:
What happened to those apartments?
UB:
Well, the airport bought up that most of those the property now that you see in College Park, from
Camp Creek all the way back to Main Street, was zoned commercial back in the early 60s. So, uh…
when the airport took over, FAA guidelines says you can't have people living up under the guide
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�patterns of the airplanes because, where the apartments were, that was glide pattern for all the jets
going into Hartsfield. And uh, on certain days you could see the fog of jet fuel they used to dump.
MS:
Wow.
UB:
So those apartments were eventually bought out like all the other houses were bought out by the
airport and they were demolished. So right now, that land is sitting vacant with the possibility of
building on it for the new construction thing they're having to do: Six West.1
MS:
So you saw the development of the airport over your lifetime to what it is now. The growth there.
UB:
Oh yes.
MS:
And so the lot of land around College Park was kind of enveloped into that process, I guess.
UB:
Yes, a lot of it, um... most of their houses where College Park Elementary sits now… all of those
houses were bought up by the airport except for a few, but the majority of the airport took them.
MS:
Uh-huh
UB:
I mean they sold to the airport; they didn’t take them. They sold it to them. And some of the people,
they didn't have house notes. They had house notes. Because a lot of the houses didn't cover the
equitable amount for the homes that they had paid for. Some of those homes were 30 and 40 years
old.
MS:
So what do you mean when you said they had house notes, but they did?
UB:
Well, most of the people, before the airport bought their homes… they weren't paying house notes.
Their houses were paid for.
MS:
Oh, I see what you mean.
UB:
And when they, uh, the airport bought them up, they had to give them a home that was equal to
what they had. And of course, they being the airport, we all knew that wasn’t happening.
1
At the time of this interview, a mixed-use construction project was underway in the area of College Park, Georgia,
west of the town’s MARTA station.
3
�MS:
Right? Sure.
UB:
So they ended up having small notes.
MS:
The, so this development is going on… is it is it affecting inequitably certain people? Like, I guess I'm
speaking specifically of Black neighborhoods. Is that where the property for the… was that kind of
most of the development from the airport?
UB:
Six West? Are you talking of Six West?
MS:
Uh, I'm talking about. Uh, I guess I'm talking historically, as the airport was expanding?
UB:
OK, uh... because we were so close to the runway.
MS:
Yeah.
UB:
…the fifth runway… uh, and I had served on the City Council. I found out that you can't have people
up on the runways. So, the noise level was like… it was over 75. It had gotten so bad you could set
your clock about what time certain planes would come over; what time certain TV shows, you
couldn't watch. It had gotten just that bad.
MS:
Right…
UB:
So that's why they bought out a lot of the people.
MS:
So let's return to the to JF. Beavers, uh… and talk a little bit about that. What was that school like?
What was the building like? We'll start there.
UB:
OK. Well, JF Beavers was really two buildings. We had one that was located where… right across
from Brady Center. It was a smaller building for smaller kids. Uh, I think it went up to… the second.
Then we had the larger red brick building that was on the other side. We could... we had a walkway;
we could cross over to the other side and that building had 3rd through 7th grade in it. It was
upstairs and downstairs. Um, the cafeteria was downstairs. Most of your classrooms were upstairs.
Uh, we had no air conditioner. It was only fans. Uh, we had I called floor to ceiling windows. We had
some big windows. So, in the summertime we had those huge fans and that's what kept us cool.
That's all we had back then.
Um, the food was excellent because a lot of the cooks or women that we knew, we had grown up
with. And we had home cooked meals. And when I say home cooked... I mean they made bread from
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�scratch. They made… most of the best vegetables, if they were canned or frozen, you thought they
were made from scratch. We just had good meals. I'm not like that stuff we got now. That stuff we
got now. No, no, no, no.
MS:
[laughs] Couldn't do that.
UB:
No, couldn’t do that did back then. There was no such thing as gluten free… [inaudible]. There was
no such thing as gluten free sugar, caffeine and stuff like that. We just had good meals.
MS:
Right. So, um… take us through, you know, I know that you went there for several grades, but what
was your kind of your average day? What time did you start?
UB:
See, I think we usually started about… 8:20… 8:25. Um… Our average day went about 3:00 o'clock.
Uh… of course, we had to put up our coats and everything and get ready for the day. We had the
pledge of allegiance and devotion. Um, and then our teachers would tell us what was planned for
that day, that particular day. Sometimes we would have special guests. Uh, but most of the time we
just worked.
MS:
Do you remember any other special guests?
UB:
Oh yes. Our area Superintendent. Her last name was Miss Sinclair. She was not a friendly person.
MS:
Oh no.
UB:
No, she was not a friendly person. She would come in and make remarks and say, “Well, you
know…” when they talk about careers where I never will forget. She said, “Well, you know, we have
some good maids and bricklayers and domestics here.” And we all kind of looked at her like, “Oh
really? OK.” But uh, she would come every other month to see how the schools – quote, unquote –
were doing in her area.
MS:
Right, and she was area Superintendent for Fulton County schools, right?
UB:
Uh huh, at that time.
MS:
Yeah, so how did you get to and from school back then?
UB:
Well, we walked. JF Beavers was walking distance. Uh and most of us walked because we were
nowhere from the school. It’s like sitting smack dab in the middle of the area and we all walked
from everywhere. Uh, we didn't have to worry about nobody snatching us because all the streets…
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�neighbors were on each side, so the kids didn’t have to worry about anything because Miss Jones
was at work… and her kids went to school, then Miss Allen, who was across the street – that didn't
work – she would be watching out. So, everybody had a kind of safeguard… watching out for their
kids.
MS:
I remember… so you and I, uh…on one of our previous meetings, talked about the kind of sense of
community, and I think it even came up to where a lot of the teachers or uh, just everybody knew
each other and kind of, you know, it was almost like… raising children using the village, right? … is
that right, yeah?
UB:
Right, that's right. My third-grade teacher, Miss McCree, lived 3 doors up from me on Conley. And
my 4th grade teacher, Miss Hattie Jones, which would later become the principal, she lived 3 streets
over. So, there's no saying you're going to get away with something because all she said was, “I'll tell
your mother.”
MS:
[laughs]
UB:
And parents then, they stayed with the schools. They were in contact with the schools… and they
told you up front. If the teacher has called me… because we did have some people think we didn't
have phones, but we did it. If the teacher has to call me to come to the school. I'm going to handle
my business right there.
MS:
[laughs] Ah.
UB:
You didn't have… and some people might say no, but you didn't have the discipline problems we
have now in schools because parents took care. And they supported the teachers. There's
something you won’t find: a teacher that mistreated the child, especially when you lived in a
community where everybody knew you. That wasn’t going to happen… and they weren't going to
allow anybody else to come in and do the same thing.
MS:
Right. So, speaking of teachers does, is there any that kind of… from your time at Beavers… is there
any kind of… stick out to you… as leaving one bigger impression than another? Or any memories
about any teachers specifically?
UB:
We had a lot of teachers. Ms. T. Jones, her first name was Thelma, we called her Ms. T. Jones, was my
first-grade teacher. Very soft-spoken, firm, but she loved children, and she loved teaching. It was
nothing that she wouldn't do for you. Very giving person. Uh, there was Miss Huggins. She was a
singer. At any program, she would sing, and she taught music. She was a second-grade teacher, but
she taught music. Um, there was Miss Clark… my fourth-grade teacher. No, she's my um… she
worked with my 4th grade teacher. Miss Clark was a little short lady. She looked almost like a child.
But she, but she was like Roosevelt. She spoke softly and carried a big stick. She didn’t have no
problems, none. There was a Ms. Rowe. And at that time, you know paddling was permitted. And
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�she had her buddy… and her buddy was called Doctor Pepper. You did not want Doctor Pepper,
because Ms. Rowe would call your parent. And you all would have a meeting in the bathroom.
Wouldn’t have no problems with… with you know, Doctor Pepper. [laughs]
MS:
So, the… so if I'm getting this straight, the paddle was named Doctor Pepper?
UB:
It wasn’t a paddle. It was a piece of leather. And she had it cut. Like um… yeah, like a paddle, but she
named it Doctor Pepper and it was brown just like the drink, Doctor Pepper.
MS:
Right. Got it.
UB:
Ah, there was Mr. Stevens. Mr. Stevens was our choral teacher, music teacher. Mr. Stevens was a
sharp dresser. I mean he dressed real sharp, sharp, sharp… church sharp. Everything he wore was
coordinated. But he loved music. He loved music and he taught choral music. And then there's Mr.
Patterson, our band teacher. Ah, course, at that time they were all traveling. Mr. Patterson was
really good. In fact, he's still alive now. Been trying to get in touch with him. He teaches at Clark
Atlanta University and he's over the jazz orchestra at Clark. So those are some of the teachers that
left a big impression on me.
MS:
Interesting. Were you musical?
UB:
Yes, I played the clarinet and the piano.
MS:
So did you all have any music programs back… at Beavers. Did you all?
UB:
Oh now yes, Christmas. We always had a big Christmas production, and we always had it at the gym.
We would have a choral singing. We would have skits. Uh, we would have dance and that's
[inaudible] We had two big programs for the year. We had the Christmas concert in December. And
right before, or either after spring break, we would have a Big Spring concert. And Mr. Stevens, Miss
Huggins and Mr. Patterson... they would all work together. And we would have different things. Like
I said, choral singing, band… the band would have… we played a couple of tunes. So, it was a big
production.
MS:
Sure, you said that these teachers. Uh... You said they were traveling. They would go from school to
school?
UB:
They went school to school, yes.
MS:
So, a music teacher, say at Beavers might also go over to Avery.
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�UB:
Yes.
MS:
And teach there too. OK, that's… That's interesting, because we think now about how each school
has its own, you know, specials, teachers everywhere. So, that's really an interesting point. This
would have been back around 1960s, early 60s, probably.
UB:
Yeah, the early 60s. Now we did have special ed. Unfortunately, back then you were responsible for
getting your child to school. They didn't have buses. So, the parents were responsible for getting
them to school. They didn’t teach them like they're teaching them now. It was more so, like we had
the severe and mild… in the same room. There was no differentiation. Uh, they were all taught the
same things. And you know, in some cases, depending on the severity, um, they wouldn't let the
child come to school.
MS:
Sure.
UB:
And I don't think they had services going to the homes back then.
MS:
Right, right. So, special ed would have been one that was like at each school, kind of a permanent…
Yeah, so did you have any favorite subjects yourself?
UB:
Uh-huh yeah. Science.
MS:
Science, any particular science?
UB:
Ah well, back then it was just one. You had physical science. And that covered everything.
MS:
I see.
UB:
Oh and history. I was big history buff.
MS:
Yeah. Um… So… You know, I know when we're… when we're that young, friends mean a lot to us.
Did you have any particular… buddies, friends that you hung out with that you could remember and
speak to?
UB:
Well, let's see. I had Shirley Lemons. Her brothers and sisters went to... we all went to the same
school. Um, there was Marjorie Ellis. Her brothers and sisters went to the same school. [laughs]
UB:
The Hightowers…
8
�MS:
…who it sounds like we'll be talking to at some point.
UB:
Yes, you will. Who else? Um, Brenda Reeves. Well, her name was Reeves, but her married name is
Dill now…and Charles. We were all classmates, so we all hung.
MS:
And was this like, you would go to school together, and you'd play together or after school or
whatever. So yeah, again, back to that whole community.
UB:
Exactly. Exactly. Sometimes we would. Some of us would be in the same classroom.
MS:
Right.
UB:
Or we'll be across the hall from each other, but when we had recess, everybody was outside, so… we
would all get together then. Then we also saw each other at church because we were all members of
the same church, or we were… members of either Shiloh, Lasters Chapel, Mount Zion, Friendship or
Mount Olive. So, one way or another we were going to see each other.
MS:
I'm glad you brought up Mount Zion. I was going to… we're going to talk about that in a few
minutes. But um... one of the things, and I want to acknowledge this right now... one of the things
that brought you and I into contact was the story over the JF Beavers Elementary School. I was
wondering when you were younger and going there, or even after you left there, did you have a
sense of who Jefferson Franklin Beavers was? Or was that just you know, a name on the school to
you?
UB:
No, they told us who Jefferson Beavers was. The portrait hung at old Beavers. It hung right as you
come into the door in the office. And that's something we learned day one. Black History Month.
That's who we talked about. People in our community, what their status was, and what they had
done. And he was one of them. And also Ms. Eva Thomas.
MS:
Sure.
UB:
So we knew why the school was named for him and what he had done for the community.
MS:
What, to you, had he done?
UB:
Well, he worked for the Postal Service, but he was also a member of Mount Zion AME Church, so he
did a lot of community work inside College Park and also outside College Park. He was also a... I
think he was a mason.
9
�MS:
Uh-huh.
UB:
Masons… my grandfather was a mason. My grandmother was an Eastern Star and a lot of them
were in College Park. A lot of your deacons and deaconesses, my grandparents, and their friends. A
lot of them belong to the Eastern Star, so um…
MS:
Sure.
UB:
He did a lot. Helped people with housing and food and different things.
MS:
Did you ever meet him?
UB:
No, unfortunately by the time I was of age, he had… he was deceased.
MS:
Right. So, speaking of that. Black education, and I'm speaking specifically now of Beavers, and it's a
question... You know that that would have a lot of context here, as an elementary school student...
obviously, schools in Fulton County were still segregated by race back then. Did you have a sense as
a child, or was your community so close that you were kind of insulated from the fact that you were
going to a school that was segregated? What did that mean to you as a child?
UB:
Well, first of all, we knew we were in the segregated system. I mean, anytime you go to school, and
you open up a book and it says S. R. Young Elementary or Kathleen Mitchell [Elementary].
MS:
Which were… which were schools for white children?
UB:
Right, we knew that we were second class. They wanted us... they treated us as second class. That
was number 1. Number 2, our parents raised us to the point where we were told you'll never be
second class. Just because somebody says that about you doesn’t mean that's you. You could prove
them wrong. You do what you have to do, remember your education, and whatever you dream,
make your dream possible. That was… they would always tell us that. And number 3: we grew up in
civil rights… during the civil rights time, so we knew about the protests and all of that. And the
people I grew up with, we were ready because we had seen how our parents were treated. I mean,
during the time I grew up, I knew what it was to go to the colored fountain and to the colored
bathrooms and ride in the back of the bus. I grew up during that time, uh… you had to wait even
though you're in line. If somebody wanted something and you were not white, then you just had to
wait your turn and that's whenever they felt like serving. So, we knew where we were. It's just the
way we had to adapt to it.
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�MS:
And for the record, this is College Park, is part of suburban Atlanta, so that's the kind of the context
we're talking about here.
UB:
Uh-huh
MS:
So, uhm… I want to transition now and kind of move into where you're going into high school at Eva
Thomas and I was thinking maybe the best way to do it is kind of divide it up into two kind of
conversations… and the first being the school itself, which was opened in 1964 according to our
records. Uh, so… I think in a previous conversation you mentioned you would have gone to… is it
Booker T. Washington High School had Eva Thomas not been there? Or I can't remember…
UB:
No, we would have gone to South Fulton in East Point.
MS:
South Fulton in East Point. Yes, OK.
UB:
South Fulton took kids from College Park, East Point and Fairburn... and part of Hapeville.
MS:
So, this would’ve been the school for Black students to go to high school in the South Fulton area…
UB:
Right.
MS:
…just south of downtown Atlanta. So, do you remember the kind of… the construction of the school?
I know we get into kind of an urban renewal project, which involves the building of this school,
among other things. Can you maybe talk a little bit about your memory of that or what you know
now about that?
UB:
Well, it was, it was. It was interesting because where the school sits now, like Dowdell2 said, there
were churches and houses back there. Some of the streets in College Park were not paved. Napoleon
was one of them and that's where the school sits on top of it. Um… we knew it was a building
coming up, but we didn't know exactly what kind of building, and it was not until later on they told
us they were building the school down there. So, everybody was excited because South Fulton had
become overcrowded… and um... they weren't going to let us go to College Park High. And they sure
weren’t going to let us go to Russell, so we had to have our own building.
MS:
So and you knew you would be going there eventually as it was being built. So what year, what year
did you start at Eva Thomas?
2
Charles Dowdell, graduate of South Fulton High School (Class of 1960) and volunteer athletic coach at Eva
Thomas High School.
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�UB:
Ooh… Eva Thomas with built in ‘64… ’66.
MS:
Did you eventually graduate from there?
UB:
I was a member of the last graduating class of Eva Thomas. We graduated in 1970.
MS:
1970.
UB:
Uh-huh
MS:
So um... we have records and just before I go on and move on to the next subject, we have records
about the project of the construction of the school, that there may have been some families that
were displaced. And certainly, it's a universal theme with urban renewal across the country that it
affected certain people more than it affected others. Did you know of anybody that the project
affected… whether positively or negatively?
UB:
Ah well, the whole that whole block… it had Ms. Burton and had Mr. Bussey. Uh, Shiloh Baptist
Church. Ah, you had at least ten families on Napoleon alone, because most of the streets used to go
straight through. Uh, I don't know if you noticed or not, but when you were at the school, there was
a street that had steps on it. That used to be Napoleon and it went straight through all the way
down to Virginia. What is now Virginia Ave, toward where Mount Cavalry is. It went all the way
down through there. So, I had to be about 30 families that were that were misplaced.
MS:
Yeah, where did they go? Do you know?
UB:
Um… some of them went to East Point. Some of them went, uh… maybe Fairburn.
MS:
Uh huh.
UB:
Uh, they went other places.
MS:
OK, so you start Eva Thomas. Do you remember your first day?
UB:
Oh yeah, it was exciting. It was a big building. And we had to get used to a lot of space. Now one
thing about Eva Thomas before they… you notice a lot of the newer buildings have green spaces. Ah,
we had a green space in our building. It was a large courtyard, and we had a huge… what kind of
tree was… cedar tree, huge cedar tree. And we would have lunch at that. And at that time, they
taught carpentry in schools. So, they built tables where we could go out and have lunch in the green
12
�space. On nice days, sometimes we would have birthday parties, or the teachers would set up
something for us, or other teachers, even parents. It was a large green space and we utilized it, Um…
we had a home ec. center, which will they don't know where that is now.
MS:
Right. [laughs]
UB:
[laughs] …with stoves and things to cook. We had sewing machines. Business classes had um…
typewriters. That's all they had, typewriters. Um, adding machines, dictating. We did Gregg
Shorthand, which they don't do anymore either. So, we had different rules for different things. We
had a chemistry room. We had a biology room. Um... we had a clinic. We had a teachers lounge. So,
we had everything that most of the schools have now. Only thing that's missing is drivers ed. And
everybody, they should have never taken that out of schools, never.
MS:
Right. Sounds like a beautiful school.
UB:
It was, it was... it was a beautiful building, and we had a lot of natural light. Like I said, you notice
the buildings now have a lot of floor-to-ceiling windows.
MS:
Uh-huh.
UB:
That's where we had our building, I think. On one of the stations, either WSB or Channel 5. They
showed you the building. And how we had windows in the walkway. So, we had we had a lot of
natural light.
MS:
What was that first day like?
UB:
Hectic… all turned around trying to find my classrooms. We were used to everybody being in the
same classroom. Well, we had to get used to being separated, but we were still in the same hall. I
might be in Ms. Harrison’s Room and Brenda might be in Mr. Dingle’s room and we’ll be three doors
down. So, the only time we really see each other is when we changed classes. And if we were lucky,
we might end up in the same class. Now everybody ended up in gym. That was fun too. We had to
change out… so.
MS:
What was your… did you, uh… involve yourself in stuff outside the classroom? Did you… [do]
extracurriculars?
UB:
Uh, let’s see, I was with FBLA. And that's about it… because I was busy doing church activities, so I
only took up one. And I was in… oh, I take that back, chorus. I was in chorus.
13
�MS:
Um… So, did Eva Thomas have a lot of extra curriculars, I mean sports? And obviously they had
chorus and a music program… obviously.
UB:
Yeah, we had the basketball team, the football team… girls and boys. … had a football team. We had
the chorus. We had the band. We had um… FBLA. We had the Honor Society, Science Club.
MS:
Science still your favorite subject going into high school?
UB:
Yep. Yep.
MS:
So, what did you want to do after high school?
UB:
Well, I took a lot of business courses and I wanted to focus on business administration. So, after I
left Eva Thomas, I went to Atlanta Area Tech and took computer courses. Now you know how
archaic computers were back then. We had to wire our own boards to make the thing do what we
wanted to do. But I did that and… worked for the United States Army recruiters for about four
years. And then I went into [laughs] politics… [laughs again]
MS:
So you're laughing. [laughing]
UB:
Of course, I started work in the school system back in ‘98 because my kids were in school, and I got
nosey because I wanted… I already knew how the schools operated. I really wanted to get nosey
and see how they operate now, because there was a lot of things that needed to be changed.
MS:
Sure. OK well. Let's go, let's go back to Eva Thomas… is there anything before we move into how the
school closed and the events that had occurred around that… is there anything that you would want
some students or researchers… anything you would add to your experience at Eva Thomas that
made it special enough that you're still commemorating that today? …besides the closing.
UB:
Well, that's a part of my history and a part of… our community’s history. Um… we always preach
about we want to learn from history, but we're too busy trying to bury it. History is not pretty.
MS:
Right.
UB:
And get over it. It is what it is. Because you're supposed to learn from your mistakes and that's what
I want the youth to realize. Now we're not going to be here always. So, we want to preserve what
we have. Everything is special for a reason. And we want you to remember that. And if you can
make it better, do so. If not, sit down, close your mouth, don't say nothing.
14
�MS:
So, just for our listeners and our viewers, Eva Thomas was… in 1969, um… the late summer of
1969… the Board announced that it would close the school. Uh, in the face of um… desegregating
the entire Fulton County School district. So how did you find out… when and how did you find out
that the school – your school – was going to be closed?
UB:
Well, like I said, my mother worked with the College Park neighborhood voters league. And they got
wind of some information. Uh, we didn't know anything about it. The students didn't know anything
about it until maybe three or four weeks after school closed. And that's when they decided. Well,
we'll tell them, and they can't do anything about it. It's almost like they wanted to wait till the last
minute so nothing could be done.
MS:
They, being the Board.3
UB:
Yeah, they, being the Board. Now what they didn't tell anybody was they had already decided what
students were going to what schools. You would think that they would let all of us come to College
Park High. No, they didn't do it that way. All the athletes went to College Park High. All your
advanced or scholastically high students went to College Park High. Everybody else was scattered
out. So, they had already divvied up, who they wanted, which made it even worse because you
know months ago that you were going to do this, but you didn't tell us about it.
MS:
Um… so, how many students, would you care to guess, were at Eva Thomas at the time it closed…
entire student population? And what percentage ended up going to College Park as opposed to the
rest?
UB:
OK, if I let's say… I would have to say close to 400 students.
MS:
Entirely. In total.
UB:
In total. At that time, you know schools were built to hold a whole lot of kids. It had to be at least
four, maybe 425, 450.
MS:
Sure.
UB:
But that was everybody that was in the community. I would say... 15%.
MS:
Went to College Park?
3
Fulton County Board of Education
15
�UB:
Went to College Park.
MS:
Yeah. And the rest would go to one particular school? Or many schools?
UB:
Oh, many schools because at that time you had College Park High, Woodland High. You had, um…
what’s the other high school? [pauses] I can't think of it now, but you had those two. Oh, Russell.
Excuse me, Russell High School. Those three, that's what everybody else was divided up amongst.
MS:
K. Sure… So, I kind of, in preparation for our conversation, kind of put together a little timeline that
involves August and September of 1969. This is the beginning of the school year, when this… after it
had been announced that it would be closed. I mean, what an eventful, you know, summer, right?
We have the moon landing just like a few weeks before school starts. Woodstock was going on in
New York. I mean, of all things, the Manson murders are going on in August too. I mean it's just…
UB:
It was a freaky time.
MS:
It was a freaky time, right? Did you have a sense of this kind of thing? The moon? This whole… that
that year was so eventful.
UB:
Well, we kept up with everything with the moon landings and everything. Woodstock? It was
alright, but most of the time we thought about the moon, but we were excited because we were
getting ready to graduate.
MS:
Yeah, yeah.
UB:
That was ’69-‘70. That was our school year. We had already made plans. We were working on
senior trips and stuff like that for graduation and then you throw this at us. We were not happy at
all.
MS:
Yeah. Well, so let's talk a little bit about that if we can. So, it's… it's August and a lot of this timeline
that I have is based off Atlanta Constitution articles that come from that time period. And you've…
you've made a donation that includes these articles to the archive. Uh, and so it looks like... there
was a demonstration that occurred about mid-August. The Atlanta Constitution reported that
demonstrators, possibly a few hundred, marched to the Fulton County Courthouse to present the
Board with the petition, uh, with many, many signatures demanding the reopening of the school.
Were you a part of that, or were you aware that that was happening at?
UB:
In the courthouse? Or did we go to the Fulton County Board of Education building?
16
�MS:
I think maybe you're that's correct. Yes, I may have mistyped it.
UB:
OK, that was on Cleveland Ave.
MS:
Yes, on Cleveland Ave in East Point.
UB:
No, I wasn't with that group. It was two groups. Um… most of the ones that went in that group… a
lot of parents were involved in it. The College Park neighborhood Voters League was involved in it,
and some of the churches were.
MS:
Were your parents part of that group?
UB:
My mom, my mother was yes.
MS:
Yeah. OK.
UB:
My mom, Mr. WJ Freeman, who the Health Center is named after… he… he was instrumental in that;
Mr. Johnny Robinson, uh, and of course, Mr. Morris Dillard.
MS:
So the NAACP was already...
UB:
Yes.
MS:
…on the scene.
UB:
Already on the scene.
MS:
And we are… and you and I are speaking just a just a few weeks, possibly after Mr. Dillard’s passing.
So, when I mentioned that this interview is taking place in that context as well.
UB:
Right. Right.
MS:
So… it looks like at the very beginning of the school year, they're getting… they're holding a
registration at College Park High… and I assume at the other high schools. Um… and it looks like
that some of the, some of the Eva Thomas students are having issues registering. Is that correct?
UB:
That's correct.
17
�MS:
And why would they have trouble?
UB:
Well, for one thing, they weren't part of the chosen group. See, if you weren't chosen to go, you
couldn’t register.
MS:
So we're assuming that there was a list of students names, yeah?
UB:
Oh, it was a list. Oh yeah, because they had already... they had already promised them… I said
promised them who they were going to send to the school because College Park High then didn’t
have a good… athletic department. They sucked.
MS:
OK. [laughs]
UB:
Because we use to beat them all the time.
MS:
Sure, oh so… so, you all did play against white…
UB:
Oh yeah, we played them. They didn't have a good… they didn't have a good athletic thing. Not
when it came to us. Now I don't know what they did with other schools, but not when it came to us.
MS:
So, take us through what happened next, after this registration... or this failed registration attempt.
So, what happened next?
UB:
Well, they decided that we would do a sit-in.
MS:
At Eva Thomas.
UB:
At Eva Thomas. What they didn't realize was, it was going to be more than just a sit-in. It was going
to be a live-in.
MS:
And that was the plan from the very beginning?
UB:
That was the plan. That was the plan.
MS:
With the ultimatum that they keep the school open.
UB:
That's it. That's it.
18
�MS:
Were you there?
UB:
Oh yeah. I spent many a night there… and days.
MS:
Can you talk about that?
UB:
Well, it was, um… that's why Ms. Geraldine Lewis came in. Ms. Andrew Farnell, Ms. Irene Spear.
The Neighborhood Voters League, and all the churches. They made sure that we got meals because
we couldn't use anything in the kitchens. Kitchens were locked down so food had to be brought in.
Um, we didn't have to worry about nobody coming in bum rushing us because all the men in the
community… see Eva Thomas then didn’t [inaudible] now. So, they could see anything that went on
down there… and believe me, they were always down there. Um… we slept on the floor. We slept on
tables. We slept on lawn chairs. We had blanket; so, we were taken care of. See, it was the
summertime, so it wasn’t that bad. Oh, and we didn’t have air back then either, so we opened the
windows and got a nice breeze. But it was fun. We had a good time.
MS:
So you're actually yeah… How much of this? How much were you inspired by what you were
seeing? I don't know if you watch too much TV back then… with all the protests and everything that
had been going on in the previous years, did that kind of help inspire your efforts? Or do you feel
like this was kind of an independent thing?
UB:
Well no, it helped because we all looked at the protests. We all looked at the sit-ins. Um… so that
was part of our culture back then. Um, every time we turn around, somebody was protesting
something, so we knew how to do it. Now what we had to learn is we didn't want to have a snitch.
And that was the hardest thing because, you know, just some folks. You just wanted to snatch and
just beat the snot out of him. But you couldn't do that. It's just like it is now. They would be harder
on me than they would be on the other person. So, we had to learn to just keep our cool. And that's
where Jessica and Morris came in. They were very soft spoken, um… and he just told us, he said,
“You can't do that. They have to learn… you have to learn not to let people push your buttons,
because that's what they want. Because they had already said we were beasts… and we didn't know
how to act. And all of this stuff. He said, “You want to make liars out of them and that's basically
what we did. When we went to the… when we took over his office… Dr. West’s office.4 We had news
cameras there from Channel 5 and Channel 2. Can't remember the reporters name at Channel 5, but
they followed us in the office. We sat down in the office on the floor. We ate our lunch, we cleaned
up. When West walked in the office, he pretended like we had feces all over his office and we left it a
whole mess, and all of this. And when reporters asked him about it, he lied and said he didn't say
that. So, it was like they wanted us to act out and we wouldn't do it. Even the day when they came
down to the school with, uh… what's his name?
4
Paul D. West, Superintendent of Fulton County Schools, 1947-1971
19
�MS:
Leroy Stynchcombe?5
UB:
Yeah… Stynchcombe… he came in and he was giving us, “Well, we know y'all some good kids and
I've never had problems with you. Know you the first bunch…” and we said, “Uh huh.” And you see,
they had already told us he was going to come in to say this to us, right? So, he said, “Now you all
are going to help us get you out of here, right?” Then we went, “No.” He said, “What do you mean?”
And he we all just stood up because we were in the gym, and we were sitting in the bleachers.
We all stood up now. He had deputies there with him. We all stood up and we walked to the gym
floor, and we all lied down. And Morris was the first one they took out. And he had already told us,
he said, “They want you to fight. Don't fight them. Just let them take you out.” So, they took him out
first. They didn't drag us; you know they kind of… picked us up by the arm and we walked. We
didn’t tussle with them, or anything like that. But little did they know we had already... we knew
about their plan. That's why we had a Plan B. And that's why we marched around the building and
went right back in… in the back.
MS:
[laughs] So, they… basically it's not like they were arresting, they were removing.
UB:
Yeah, they had, um… West had given the order that he wanted us out of the building. From what I
understand, he had called the Mayor of College Park. I don't remember who he was at that time.
MS:
Nolan.
UB:
Yes, Mayor Nolan, pilot for Eastern Airlines. Um, Nolan told him, “No.” That was his ballpark. That's
his ball game. He needed take… they wouldn't do anything. So, that’s what they did.
MS:
I think the Constitution reported… and you can correct me if I'm wrong that... yeah… one point of
clarification: Dr West was the Superintendent of Fulton County Schools from 1947 to 1971. Uh, and
Morris Dillard, of course, with the NAACP. Um… you had mentioned a Jessica a little bit ago that
Jessica and Morris had kind of kept the situation. Who was Jessica?
UB:
Jessica Allen. Her name is Mohammad. Now she was the spokesperson for all the students.
MS:
So she was a student herself.
UB:
Yes, Jessica was a student… her brothers and her sisters. Remember that this is a family thing. So,
we had brothers and sisters in this thing too.
5
Chief Deputy of Fulton County Sheriff’s office, Leroy Stynchcombe
20
�MS:
Uh-huh
UB:
So, Jessica was chosen to be the spokesperson and she worked with Morris, Mr. Freeman, my
mother, Johnny Robinson and Donna Edwards. They all worked together.
MS:
So, there was an organized leadership.
UB:
Yes.
MS:
Throughout.
UB:
Yes.
MS:
…beginning to end. Yeah, so I have seen in the records and through the newspapers that the mayor
of College Park... Do you believe his intentions were to just let it play out and that eventually… I
mean, do you… what do you think his motivations were for not interrupting or jumping in?
UB:
Well, [laughs] they wanted to keep their hands clean of the situation. They were already in it.
Because they… they were contacting them, Fletcher Thompson and West. They had their meetings,
but he wanted to be like, “No, this is your all’s mess. Leave us out of it. But I mean, it was too late.
We already knew. Because even though it's Fulton County… I learned later that even though it's
Fulton County, the city of College Park does have some leeway, because they could have said OK.
Fulton County property. The sheriff's deputies are on Fulton County property, but once you step off
of Fulton County property, you're in the city of College Park and there’s things that we're not going
to allow.
MS:
I see. OK… and I should say, Fletcher Thompson was a Congressman, US Congressman from the 5th
District,6 which was also part… of which College Park was… part of that district. So, OK… so how
long were you in the school.? …and I should, I should ask you… we've gone an hour here or so. Do
you still have a little more time for us?
UB:
Uh huh, I have a little more time.
MS:
OK… um, so you [are] in the sit-in. How long was this… you've been removed... you've marched
around the school and reentered the school. How long did the sit-in… live-in, as you call it… how
long did that take place?
6
U.S. House of Representatives. In 1969, the 5th district in Georgia included Fulton, Dekalb and Rockdale Counties.
21
�UB:
So all this... maybe till the end of September? October? Because I think we went back in. I think they
opened the building in October. I think we went back in October.
MS:
OK.
UB:
Yeah, because they had to go to court. And um… yeah, I, I think it was October because when we got
the word, it was the end of September, right? Middle of the way September. So, I think it was
October when we marched back in here. But it was in the same year. It was about... about, I would
say, two months.
MS:
Wow. Are you familiar with the… if I were to say, Hightower V. West court case, does that ring a
bell?
UB:
Hmm… it's been a long time.
MS:
The name, Effie Hightower?
UB:
Uh huh, that was one of the students.
MS:
OK. We have… I know that there was a…
UB:
I think, her mom.
MS:
Uh-huh
UB:
And her dad sued… Fulton County, because I think she was one of the ones that went to College
Park High, and they denied her.
MS:
I see. Yeah so, from what we know about the case... it ended up being kind of a case that
encompassed all of Fulton County, which originated at Eva Thomas. And it was obviously the
Hightowers versus Paul D West: Hightower v. West and the ruling went to the US 5th Circuit Court
of Appeals.
UB:
Uh-huh
MS:
Uh, which is, if you know… if we know our civil rights history. There was a lot of that… that certain
5th Circuit was all of the Deep South, so there were a lot of cases throughout that era... modern Civil
22
�Rights Era… that went to that, and so that case did too... which is I've always kind of thought,
thought an interesting point to make.
UB:
Right?
MS:
So, what happened… So, what happened then? So, OK… they decided to keep the school open?
What… what happened after all of this?
UB:
Well, they decided to keep it open for a year as a high school. But they eventually shut it down and
turned it into a middle school. I think it stayed a middle school for about… maybe four years…
before they closed it down again and... moved JF Beavers. The kids that were in the old building,
which was the brick building, because they had already closed down the smaller building. They
moved them from [inaudible] over to where they are now…and turned it into an elementary school.
And that's how it was Beavers-Thomas Elementary School and then they changed the name to
College Park Elementary School.
MS:
Yes, so now currently, it is now College Park Elementary School, which kind of brings us full circle.
To you, you had just held a commemorative event back in May at College Park Elementary School,
site of the old Eva Thomas. And it was called, “Remembering Our Past,” and there were, you know,
several declarations, proclamations. And anyway, this spoke to me personally, as kind of this
community event… that this community has stayed so close all these years later… all these years
later.
UB:
Uh-huh.
MS:
And you seem to have kind of been this spearhead of that effort, although I'm sure it's involved a lot
of people. Uh, so I just want to recognize that and kind of ask you if we wrap up this story, what do
you… what do you kind of take away from your high school experience and that… the
demonstration being a large part of it? And how did it kind of uh… affect how you acted… or what
you did afterwards?
UB:
Well, I still have a sense of community. And we still get together. Ah me, my classmates and their
families. We are still in touch with each other. And we talk about the old times. We also talk about
the new times. But one thing we always remember is you never forget your past. You never forget
from where you come from, because that's what made us into the people we are today. I still dip a
little bit in politics. I have no problem with raising hell to nobody. I don't care who it is, but I know
what's right. I know what… what should be right. And we have got to stand up and do what we need
to do. A lot of times, things get brushed under the rug because people don't want to face them. Well,
after you brush it under the rug, that lump gets kid kind of big to the point where you’re just going
to have to snatch it off and get rid of the lump. It’s going to be ugly, but you're going to have to face
it. And that's where I am now. I mean, it’s ugly. You may not want to look at it, but the truth is the
23
�truth. We just have to make it better. It’s gotten a little better, but we still do little sneaky things
under the table that people don't know about… that we think people don't know about.
MS:
What do you mean?
UB:
Well, let's see. We have programs in [inaudible] and that we don't have on the south side…and
that… equality. Um… you give a north side school a program or athletic building or something
before you do it on the south side. Case and point, the school that I used to work, S.L. Lewis, they
promised them a brand-new building. Well, that was over 10 years ago. You have a building sitting
smack dab in the middle of a community, knowing full well that the buildings that you're building
now will wipe out every house on that street. You know that. You also know that's a commercial
zone now, so the neighborhood… the kids are leaving the neighborhood. Why would you want to
build a school there? You should have built the school there years ago, when you promised it, when
you had kids to go there. Right now, Fulton County is suffering because they've lost enrollment...
because kids have grown, they've moved out. And these huge buildings that they built… on the
enrollment. That's the only reason why you want to go from kindergarten to 8th grade because you
know you don't have… you've lost the student population and you've got to do something with
these humongous buildings you got… or waste money. That's what I mean when you try to do stuff
up under the table and it comes back to bite you.
MS:
I see. Well. Is there… is there any… final thoughts you may have, or anything that we've not
addressed? I feel like we've talked quite a bit and got a clearer picture of the Eva Thomas story.
UB:
I just want people to be aware of the Teaching Museum South.
MS:
It's this… for the record, the Fulton County School Archives is located at the Teaching Museum. It's
kind of one in the same department and what brought us together for this project.
UB:
Um… I want people to… this is a part of history. History should be recorded. And I want everybody
that is within the sound of my voice, if you have any… any artifact of Sophie M. Avery, J.F. Beavers,
Eva L. Thomas... whether it be a T shirt, a picture of Miss Benton, the principal… even… if you have
anything please take it to the museum because this is our history. We want an exhibit there and we
want people to actually see that we existed. I mean, we don't have any trophies. We don't have any
of that stuff. And we just, uh… a mark in the dust, but we did exist. So, help bring our history to the
forefront.
MS:
Thank you for saying that…
24
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Oral Histories
Description
An account of the resource
Oral Histories collected from alumni, students, teachers and staff of the Fulton County School System, 1980s-present.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Fulton County Schools Archives, Hapeville, Ga
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Mike Santrock
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ursel Brown
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
1:08:35
Dublin Core
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Title
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Oral History (Transcript), Ursel Brown, November 10, 2021
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--Fulton County
College Park
Eva Thomas High School
College Park High School
desegregation
integration
Description
An account of the resource
Ursel (Miller) Brown is a native of College Park, having attended both J.F. Beavers Elementary School and Eva Thomas High School, graduating from the latter in 1970 – part of the last graduating class at that school. After graduation, Brown worked with the US Army Recruiters locally and served as a College Park City Council member.
A video recording of this oral history will be made available soon.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Fulton County Schools Archives, Hapeville, Georgia
Mike Santrock
Ursel Brown
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Fulton County Schools Archives, Hapeville, Georgia
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2021
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a><br />Direct questions regarding use to archives@fultonschools.org
Format
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Document-transcript, 24 pages
Video recording (currently unavailable), 1:08:35
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
2021.ohfc.6
College Park
College Park High School
desegregation
Eva Thomas High School
integration
JF Beavers Elementary School
Lottie Miller
Morris Dillard
segregation
Sophie M Avery Elementary School
WJ Freeman
-
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PDF Text
Text
Sandra Kimble Rucker
November 18, 2021, 2 pm
Interviewer: Fulton County Schools Archives, Teaching Museum South, Hapeville, Georgia
Interviewee: Topeka, Kansas
Interview conducted via Microsoft Teams
Sandra Kimble Rucker is a native of College Park, Georgia. As a child, she attended Jefferson Franklin Beavers
Elementary School. Her as a student at Eva Thomas High School overlapped with the integration of the
surrounding high schools and by the time Rucker graduated from College Park High School in 1971 (a
formerly all-white high school), she had attended three separate secondary schools – Eva Thomas and
Headland being the other two. At the time of this interview, Rucker lived in Topeka, Kansas, where she founded
Sandra Rucker’s Angels, a non-profit organization dedicated to American Service veterans.
Michael Santrock (MS):
So, my name is Mike Santrock. I'm with the Fulton County Schools Archives. I'm sitting here today with
Sandra Kimball Rucker. She's a former student at Eva Thomas High School in College Park. She's Joining me
now from Topeka, Kansas, where she resides today. It is two o'clock, roughly quarter after two in Hapeville
(Georgia) where I am and it's about quarter after one where she is. Thank you for joining me.
Sandra Kimble Rucker (SKR):
Okay. Oh, you're most welcome. I'm happy to do this.
MS:
I want to make note, first of the shirt that Sandra's wearing says, "shout out to College Park where the story
all begins". We're going to put it together today. So generally, what we'll do is we'll just kind of start with,
you know, with your background. First thing I would ask is, you know, where did you grow up?
SKR:
I grew up in College Park. My address was 817 West Princeton Avenue.
MS:
And your family. Tell us about your family.
SKR:
Okay, I'm one- I'm the oldest of four. I have a sister who's deceased, Diane Kimball. She was born 1956. I
have a sister named Cheryl Gonzalez. She was born in 1961. And a baby brother, but he's the big brother,
Al. We call him Al. But his name is Alfred Gonzalez Jr. and he was born in 1963. So, by me being the eldest, I
was so happy to have my little siblings. I don't think they were that happy to have me. But I was very happy.
And we came from very humble beginnings. But growing up in College Park was- it was a community
within the community of College Park. Because I grew up during the time- it was segregation. So, there was
1
�College Park outside for the whites. And then there was the little village of our village, College Park. And
that's why Eva Thomas was built. It's right down the street from College Park High, but we were not
allowed to go to that school. So thus, was born Eva L Thomas. But I went to JF Beavers Elementary School.
Then I went to Eva Thomas.
MS:
Sure. So, did this- the- the neighborhood where you grew up? You said it was segregated? Where- Did that
neighborhood have a name?
SKR:
We were still College Park.
MS:
So, there wasn't specific parts of town with different names?
SKR:
No, just College Park. That's why I said it was a village within the village of College Park.
MS:
Okay.
SKR:
Now, I came up during the time on Princeton- Oh, let me go back to my parents because we were raised
with people who taught us ethics and morals and although we didn't have that much, we had love.
Disfunction and love but more with love. My mother was Sarah Gonzalez. And my - I don't like the word
step - But my dad that God chose for me and my sister Diane, his name was Alfred Gonzalez. Now Diane and
my daddy- biological dad, his name was Harley Field Kimble and he was from East Point, Georgia. But- And
we were raised in the house with my grandparents that was Eva May Hays and Isaac Hays. But we called
him Papa. In our back yard, it backed up to a chicken factory. It was called Goode’s Brothers Chicken
Factory. And as a little bitty girl like 5, 6, 7, 8, my hobby was to catch the chickens and wring their necks,
that was the entertainment.
MS:
Wringing their necks.
SKR:
Wringing their necks, I would just run them down and dive and do it. Or either we would throw rocks, you
know, we didn't have that much to do. But on Harvard Avenue, there was an American Legion. And that's
where the Klan would have their rallies. And you could see from our back porch, them light that cross. And I
would be afraid. I would ask my granddad "are they going to come and get us?" So that was like
traumatizing. But still, and then on certain days they would- the Klan would drive their trucks fast down
Harvard Avenue. Going there. And the kids, if we were on the street playing, we would have to jump off
very fast. And2
�MS:
What you- how old were you the earliest memory of that? Of seeing the Klan in your neighborhood?
SKR:
7, 8, 9. We could- I could stand on the back porch and actually see a cross in the other neighborhood withacross the street and observe that. And that's why as an adult, when I was in my 60s, my husband now took
me to Minnesota where he's from. And we went to an American Legion. And I just sat in the car and he said
"why are you not getting out?" And I say, "that's for the Klan." And see that was trauma from a childhood.
That's the first time I ever went to an American Legion since I was a little girl.
MS:
I would imagine so. SoSKR:
I also will tell you this: I experienced… by being very light complexion, in my little neighborhood, in the first
grade. The kids did not want to play with me because they said I was a white girl. So, they would tell me to
go be with my people. They wouldn't let me swing. I couldn't do anything on the playground. So, I was
crying. And I was walking back towards Brady Gym. And a little girl came running by and she saw me
crying and she backed back and she wiped my tear. And she said, "Why are you crying?" And I said,
"Nobody would play with me." Well, that little girl we've been best friends since first grade. Her name is
Gloria Amanda Lloyd.
MS:
Did you end up going through school with her? Eva Thomas as well?
SKR:
Yes. Eva Thomas from- we were in the same class from the first grade to the 12th grade.
MS:
Sure, sure.
SKR:
And then another good friend of mine. Jessica Allen. She came later. Not as little kids, I think maybe 6/7
grade.
MS:
Yeah.
SKR:
Can't remember, but then we became very close. And it was like a click of us.
MS:
3
�I had, I was lucky enough to speak with Jessica Allen. Her name now for our researchers is Jessica
Muhammad. But back then her name was Jessica Allen. We got to speak with her yesterday.
SKR:
Oh great.
MS:
Pleasant conversation, a wonderful conversation. So, what did your, um, what did your parents do?
Growing up what- what was their job? How did they make a living?
SKR:
Well, my mother was a stay at home with us. And my dad, he did work like I don't know the proper name
for it, but they were put in like marble floors. They did the airport; the old airport and he would travel
doing that. But my grandparents. My grandmother was a maid, and my grandfather was the janitor at the
city hall. So, I was raised with people with very little education but they always wanted me to be a better
person. So that's exactly what I strive for and that's exactly what I did. But just growing up there and me
trying to climb a tree and mess with the Blue Jay's eggs and they- they got me they ran me around that, that
yard and I ran in the house screaming. My granddaddy said, "I told you that was going to happen." And I
miss- I really miss those simple days that we- that I had back then, just a simple thing is throwing a rock
just sitting down looking up in the sky, counting stars although all around us, we- it was like we were
controlled within the neighborhood. Even if we played softball down the street from me, and if that ball
went across that street was called Fairway Drive onto the golf course, we could not- we were not allowed to
go get that ball. Because during that time it was for whites only. Even- one of my friends tried to do that.
And this white guy told him. No, n-words could come across there.
MS:
So, there was kind of a fear of invading that space? OrSKR:
Yes.
MS:
Wonder what would happen if caught, besides being verbally told to get off.
SKR:
Oh, probably they would hang him.
MS:
Wow.
SKR:
4
�Because I actually got to witness that- a body hanging over at Brady Gym. When you drive into the
driveway. The gym is over to the left. And if you go straight, there's a little- like a little road they made. And
it was a body hanging, hanging from a tree there.
MS:
Do you remember about what year that was? Just a range.
SKR:
I had to been around 12. And let's say I'm not that fast with that math now. So I was born in ‘ 53. So what
you tell me what year was that?
MS:
Six- six- Mid 60s, early- mid 60s.
SKR:
Yeah, it was in the 60s. Yes.
MS:
Wow. in College Park.
SKR:
In College Park.
MS:
I know that tal- from talking with Jessica, Brady's gym was a hangout for a lot of youth in that community.
Whether they played sports or not or- so for that, to be in proximity of Brady means- seems to me,
somebody would have had to come in and invaded that space to get somebodySKR:
Oh, they did.
MS:
And euthanize him, yeah. You think that was the Klan?
SKR:
Yes, we knew- we couldn't prove it… yeah, we saw them. But we knew. Because it was like a fear- like they
had already instilled the fear in us.
MS:
Yeah.
SKR:
5
�And I got to live there more- longer than Jessica had to witness this kind of stuff. From even when I wasstarted dating. we would leave my street, go up Princeton, cross- one time- we get ready to cross on Conley
then continue on (to) Princeton. There would be two white cops in their car. They would pull Larry over,
that's the guy I was dating then, and they would shine this big spotlight in my face to make sure I wasn't a
white woman.
MS:
Oh.
SKR:
See, I was- I've been traumatized from a kid.
MS:
Sure. You mentioned a few minutes ago that your light complexion could be a- could be problematic when
dealing with other, other black children.
SKR:
Yes.
MS:
Right?
SKR:
Yes.
MS:
Did your siblings face the same thing? Where they as light complected orSKR:
No, I'm the only one that was as light as I am. Actually, I actually had a- when I was around darker
complexion women, I would, like, try to make them be at ease with me and like me, even as an adult.
Because I found out that they thought women that were very fair- a light complexion, they call it “light
bright nearly white,” that we were snooty, uppity. It goes back to me, like the house, you know back in the
days where the slaves were some in the house, some outside?
MS:
Right.
SKR:
As that mentality continued on and with the par- somebody- they- the kids had to get it from somewhere?
MS:
Sure.
6
�SKR:
So even when they treat me like that.
MS:
Sure. Well, so tell me about you're going off to school for the first time. Where- Did you say you went to JF
Beavers?
SKR:
Yes. I went to J- that's the elementary. Uh, the first grade my granddad- they got me a beautiful red apple.
And he said- he called me Sanders not Sandra. He says "Sanders, I want you to take this shiny apple, hand it
to your teacher and you will be the teacher's pet." Okay. It worked. Then we had a garden, and he would
grow like collards and turnips and- all in the back by the chicken factory, you know because our propertyThe fence was the chicken factory. Back of the chicken factory. But he would sit there and call us. And then I
would say "Mrs. Coleman, my granddad sent you this." It was just- I think about things like that little bitty
kid and me running around the yard, chasing chickens. Throwing rocks, picking up a stick. That little
community that we live in, there were dysfunction, but there was a lot of love, a lot of support. It's like, weevery child was the parents' child. You know, if I was doing something wrong, then they will correct me. But
I never did do anything wrong. I was always a “miss goody two shoes.”
MS:
Well, I took this- you know, there's a common thread that I've heard in, in talking with Emma and Lawyer
Dudley, Jessica, Charles and Ursel, Charles Dill. Is this sense that, you know, there- there was- it was a
village that was raising a bunch of kids together kind of- and in the sense that if you did something, your
parents would know about it.
SKR:
That's right.
MS:
And also, other adults would parent you by proxy, right?
SKR:
That's correct. Yes.
MS:
And so, um, you sa- now you said you were on- you lived on. Forgive me. You lived on Princeton?
SKR:
Princeton. West Princeton.
MS:
And so that, and if I- am correct that JF Beavers was on Princeton as well?
7
�SKR:
No, it was on the next street over I think that was Rose.
MS:
Okay. So, you would walk to school?
SKR:
Yes, we would.
MS:
Okay.
SKR:
I would walk to school and that was a big thing. We would walk to school and unless I got rocked- they
would rock me home.
MS:
You know, we've, we've learned quite a bit here about Jefferson Franklin Beavers. When you were young,
and you were going to that school, did you have a sense of, of him and his family his- the role he played in
education for Black students in College Park? Did you have a sense of that at the time?
SKR:
No, I didn't. But I'll tell you this.
MS:
Please.
SKR:
I would say the name to myself. I was- Jefferson Franklin Beavers. This is an important man. I mean, like in
the first, second grade, I would just say the name out to myself. And then I would think, and that I was
actually proud to be going to that school. But getting older, I never did really research what he did.
MS:
Yeah, he was, um, his daughter ended up writing a biography about him. And we just, we learned that he
was a postal employee, but an advocate, kind of a mover for that school, which wasn't named after him
until the 50s. But that school there, in that area. So, there's a whole story behind that. But so was there a
teacher there that maybe made an impression on you at an early age?
SKR:
Yes.
MS:
8
�More than another? And who would that be?
SKR:
Her name was Mrs. Reese. And I think thatMS:
Why was shSKR:
Was she my seventh-grade teacher? You said why?
MS:
Yeah, how did she make an impression? What- what- impression did she leave on you?
SKR:
It was her manner- her mannerisms, the way she would treat us, the kids- she treated us with respect. And
that made you feel that you want to learn.
MS:
Right.
SKR:
And she was very into education. I wish I knew- Well, I don't know if she's deceased or not, but she really
had an impact on me.
MS:
Were you a good student?
SKR:
I think so.
MS:
And so JF Beavers was- would take you from first grade to seventh grade and that would be it?
SKR:
We had those two little schools. I keep trying to remember it was one from the first grade over by the gym.
I'm trying to remember was that- It was part of Beavers but when you get to a certain grade then we went
to Beavers. First grade started over, I forgot the name of that school.
MS:
A different school.
SKR:
9
�But in the same area.
MS:
Okay.
SKR:
You can walk from Beavers over to this school. And then over to the Brady gym. Everything was right there
together.
MS:
Sure. Sure. So, after Beavers, you- Well, you grew up in College Park, so do you remember when Eva
Thomas was being built?
SKR:
Yes.
MS:
We know that it opened in 1964. But we also know that it was part of a larger Urban Renewal Project. And
urban renewal in the 1960s could mean different things for different people. And we know that it displaced
a lot of people. Do you know anybody who might have been displaced, not by the construction of Eva
Thomas, but by the Urban Renewal Project in general?
SKR:
No, no I don't.
MS:
No? But you remember the school being built? Well, what do you remember about it?
SKR:
Uh, I remember as being- I remember me being excited about getting a high school. And it was named after
a Black woman. So that was exciting to me and couldn't wait to go there.
MS:
What year did you start there?
SKR:
Now see you’re making me think I'm really, really old by not.
MS:
I'm forcing math on you again. I'm sorry.
SKR:
Yes.
10
�MS:
Were you there when it opened? -I guess, was the question.
SKR:
Yes. Yes. I was there when it open.
MS:
AndSKR:
And then we, I don't know if Jessica told you but we did a sit-in when they tried to close it. And they were
going toMS:
Yeah, we're getting there. We're definitely getting there.
SKR:
Okay. Well, I don't remember, I can't remember.
MS:
Do you remember the first day of school that you went there?
SKR:
Nope.
MS:
No? What memories do you have of Eva Thomas, as far as you know, attending there? Was there a
particular activity or… that you were involved in?
SKR:
Oh, yes. Let me- I have to go back to being a little girl and bring you upMS:
Sure. Oh, please.
SKR:
Okay. When I was a little girl, I'd get out of school. My mother and grandmother- they might not be in theOh, my mother and my father then were traveling. But we were with my grandmother and granddaddy. So,
they were working. So, my granddad's twin brother was the janitor at the gym. So, we get- Me and my sister
got to go inside, before they open. So, I will be sitting inside the gym, just sitting there. Think I was like,
seven, eight. And Mrs. Brady asked my uncle, could she start playing with me with the basketball. And so,
she did. And she started out by just rolling the ball to me. Roll it back. Then she had me dribble it. Well, to
11
�make the long story short, Mrs. Brady turned me into a very good basketball player. We won and I have to
land because I was- if I had a been playing now with the- they have women(‘s) professional- I would be
playing.
MS:
You'd still be playing?
SKR:
Yeah.
MS:
What position, what position did you play?
SKR:
I was forward. And never played second string.
MS:
Right.
SKR:
And never played B-team. I went straight to varsity. And Coach Chapelle at Eva Thomas, she would come
watch us play- because Miss Bessie had a team. We became a team. And she asked Mrs. Brady, could Sandra
come and scrimmage with her team. So, I got to go- that was a big thing for me. I got to go scrimmage with
the big girls.
MS:
Yeah.
SKR:
And Coach Chapelle said she couldn't wait until I got there to play with her. So, I played with Eva Thomas, I
played at Headland, when they was just there for a few minutes. And then I played at College Park. Right.
So, you actually- And I have pictures. I have pictures of the team. And if you need thatMS:
Well, we would love to see them at least. And if not get copies of them too. That would be great.
SKR:
Oh yeah, I'll be more than happy to send you some copies.
MS:
So, basketball was your thing outside of class?
SKR:
12
�Basketball. At first, I started out in the band playing the clarinet. And Mr. Patterson- I had to choose
between basketball and band. So, I chose basketball. And Mr. Patterson, who was the band director, was a
little upset with me because he said I was really good with that clarinet.
MS:
Sure.
SKR:
But I just love the game of basketball.
MS:
So, when you were at Eva Thomas, now we know this- you know, (the) 60s is still segregated high schools.
Did- did Eva Thomas- Did you all play white schools' basketball teams? Or was it primarily just other Black
schools?
SKR:
No, it was just other Black schools.
MS:
Got it. So, just kind of rounding out your academic experience. You ended up graduating from College Park?
SKR:
College Park High.
MS:
In what year?
SKR:
‘71.
MS:
Okay.
SKR:
And we were the first graduating, first class, integrated class.
MS:
Sure. So, for the next few minutes, I would like to talk to you about the events with the closing of Eva
Thomas, but also wanted before- to give you an opportunity, now that we've talked about your background,
your childhood, some of those traumatic experiences, some of those great experiences. Is there anything
else that you would add to that, that maybe I haven't asked about? Any other memories that you would
want to share of that part of your life?
13
�SKR:
Before we talked, I had a lot of memories. And then my mind just went blank.
MS:
That's okay. We can revisit them. No problem… Go ahead.
SKR:
Another thing I got to see was, this was traumatizing. We would be downtown Main Street, that, you know,
the Klan would just have their parades. And I have an uncle who was killed by the Klan. He was working for
the city. And he went to, I think it was Chicago. But he didn't come back. But they pushed him off the train
and killed him. And the cops in College Park said that no investigation would be done. And that was it. So,
they closed it. And he- his body was so messed up, back then the bodies would come to the house. He had to
have a closed casket.
MS:
How old was he?
SKR:
Uncle looked- I think he might have been in his 50s or 40s.
MS:
50s. It's a difficult question to ask. Do they- Why would that happen? What reason would they have to
target someone?
SKR:
I think because he was moving up as a Black man and- with the city. It was something to do with the union
then. I'm trying to remember but I had to bring up a little bit- let you know about that incident.
MS:
Sure.
SKR:
And they didn't want a n***** -what they said, to have that much power. So, I remember my grandmother
and my granddad his sister, because that was his brother, baby brother. They were trying to get him not to
go to Chicago. But he said he wasn't afraid, and he went.
MS:
It's disturbing to hear about that kind of violence, especially today even though, you know- Well, I'm going
to leave it at that. So, we'll, we'll go back to Eva Thomas and talk about your being a student there. And I've,
I've come to understand that there was a really, a sense of pride in having a school that new and having a
nice, you know, brand new facility, state of the art, which up until that time was not real commonSKR:
14
�No.
MS:
for the Black students in Fulton County.
SKR:
That's right.
MS:
Am I correct?
SKR:
Correct.
MS:
So, it must have been some surprise when you find out that the county Board is getting ready to close the
school. Do you remember when you found that out?
SKR:
No, I don't remember exactly when. But I can remember the pain. I’m revisiting the pain of shock. Anger,
what do we do? Now that's when we tried to sit in and then the parents going to tell me- so I couldn't
continue, that I was going to be bussed to Headland High. And I felt like I was- I felt like I was betraying my
students that were there that continued. But I couldn't be disobedient. And still a minor, but that, that hurt.
MS:
Sure. So, um, I kind of have a little timeline of the events that took place that summer as they were getting
ready to close the school. And not to stick so much with the timeline but to kind of keep an- an idea of the
events that made up the larger event, right? So, what I've learned is that they were going to close the school
and then the students from Eva Thomas were to go and register... and there's a- and there's a report that
students from Eva Thomas were being turned away during registration at College Park. Is that- is that
correct?
SKR:
I really don't know because I didn't go. I just remember them not wanting us there.
MS:
Not wanting you at College Park?
SKR:
No.
MS:
And so, what did you do then?
15
�SKR:
We had to go there anyway.
MS:
Tell me about the sit-in and as far as- was it a mass move or kind of, individuals collecting in one place all
together? Or how did that begin, I guess- the details on how it went.
SKR:
Oh, okay. It was like- (I) can't remember how we- it was organized. And the students- I can't remember
who started it. But we- that was our protest. I mean, “how dare you come and take something from us when
you didn't want us at your school?” Yep, that was wrong, I mean I still don't understand that. To this day.
MS:
Right. There's someSKR:
I mean, I know what it is, its hate. That's why I have an article that I’ve worn: this blue ribbon and the way
they worded it that they did- really did not want to give me the credit- but that beat out two white schools
for the county.
MS:
And this is a blue ribbon that you won for what?
SKR:
I did a science fair and I did anthropologies about the Aborigines and in the seventh grade they said most
kids didn't even think like that. But I've never been normal. [laughs] No, I’ve always been silly, happywanted everybody else to be happy around me. Jessica, they'll tell you that I've been a nut all my life really?
[laughs] I'm still one.
MS:
That's okay.
SKR:
A good nut now. A good nut
MS:
That's right. That's right. Were you there when the sit-in occurred? There's some images from some WSB
newsreel footage of a gymnasium full of students singing, clapping, you know, almost joyously, right? This
is the sit-in as it's taking place. Right at the opening of the 1969 school year. Were you in that gymnasium at
that point?
SKR:
16
�The first sit-in. Yes.
MS:
You were? Do you remember what happened in that gymnasium?
SKR:
No.
MS:
No? In this footage, it shows a sheriff- Fulton County Sheriff Leroy Schtynchcombe reading a court order to
the students. Do you recall that at all?
SKR:
I do now that you said that.
MS:
Yeah. Do you remember what happened after that?
SKR:
No.
MS:
No. Were any stuSKR:
Well, as far as students, I remember saying that we're still going to do it.
MS:
Still going to stay?
SKR:
Uh huh.
MS:
Yeah. How long did you stay?
SKR:
I can't remember. I don't know if I was one of the ones that had to just go on home. Because I think if- the
parents probably heard about it, and they came up and they got some of us. I might have been in “some of
us” groups.
MS:
17
�Right now, I know you were the oldest of your siblings. Did any of your siblings participate in the sit-in at
all?
SKR:
Oh, no.
MS:
No? Too Young?
SKR:
Um, too young. I'm seven years older than my baby sister- 10 years older than my little brother. And my
little- my sister, Diana. She was three years younger. I think she probably wanted to come, but they didn't
let her come.
MS:
Sure. There's also reports of parents taking- participating in it. Is that a memory from yours, too?
SKR:
Yes, it was. But mine didn't.
MS:
No?
SKR:
No.
MS:
If you had to guess how many people were participating in the sit-in when you were there- What would you
say? How many, 200? Maybe more?
SKR:
I would say 200 or maybe more.
MS:
Yeah?
SKR:
I'm trying to go, think back.
MS:
I know.
SKR:
18
�I can recall it being packed.
MS:
Did you have a sense then of all the newspaper articles, and the news cameras of what was taking place as
far as the media covering it, because they were covering this thing almost daily? A lot of the information
I've got is from the newspapers or, like I said, this newsreel footage I've seen. Did you have a sense back
then that it was a big deal?
SKR:
Yes, yes. It was a very big deal. And we were proud that we made it a big deal.
MS:
Yeah.
SKR:
History making. We didn't realize (it was) going to be, like, history- history making, but it was.
MS:
Yeah.
SKR:
Our little area should not be forgotten.
MS:
Right. Now, if I say the name Morris Dillard, how would you describe him?
SKR:
Trying to remember, Morris Dillard.
MS:
NAACP?
SKR:
Oh, yes. Yes. Powerful. Determined. For justice, equal rights. Those words come to my mind when I think of
him.
MS:
Yeah. So, who were your friends? Your close friends? Was that Jessica? I mean, were you all participating in
the sit-in together?
SKR:
Yes.
19
�MS:
So, there was a sense of belonging and friendship and community there?
SKR:
Yes. And we were close about it and I felt, I felt that I betrayed Jessica because I had to do what my parents
say versus what we had already agreed upon. ButMS:
Which is stay and then your parentsSKR:
Which is stay and fight?
MS:
Okay. I think actually, they- Julian Bond, actually spoke there as well. There were some- a lot of people have
come to light that actually participated or came by the sit-in that, um, that I didn't realize before when this
story first came to my attention. It looks like that there was also, and Jessica kind of described this, kind of
this rally at Friendship. I guess it was at a Baptist church, or is it-?
SKR:
That's the church I was a member of. Friendship Baptist church.
MS:
Yes, and so it sounds like there were several rallies thereSKR:
Yes.
MS:
During this time, right?
SKR:
That's correct.
MS:
And so, after the sit-ins- Well, let me ask you this looking back now, do you feel like those- the sit-in was
successful? Into what you set out to accomplish?
SKR:
No, no.
MS:
Why not?
20
�SKR:
Because the s- well, the school did stay open. I mean, reopened. But it wasn't- I didn't graduate from there.
MS:
And you mentioned after, after Eva Thomas became, I guess, I think a middle school.
SKR:
Yes.
MS:
You moved on to Headland first. Is that correct?
SKR:
Yeah. We were bused to Headland first. Because they did it according to the area where you live. Which
school it was, before we all ended up going to College Park High. None of that made sense to me. Why do all
this ‘going around about?’ When, I guess they was trying to do- when I think about it now- they were trying
to not have a lot of Blacks at one place. That's what I'm thinking. That just came to me. And I'm 68 now just
came to me, I just know we were forced. We were a community of people, Black people that were forced to
do something that we didn't want to do.
MS:
Right. We've seen that there's kind of a pattern that the Board followed as far as desegregation. It seemed
that they desegregated the north end of Fulton County first, where the African American population was
smaller. And then, within a couple of years it had worked it- That process had worked its way to your
community, which was, which was one of the last schools to be integrated with others. SoSKR:
I want to share- Can I share this with you? It's something I just thought about.
MS:
Please.
SKR:
When I was maybe six, seven, you know, my granddaddy was the janitor at the College Park City Hall. And
one day, I had to go up there with him to get his check. And they needed him to take the mail down to the
post office down the street. I don't know if you're familiar with College Park, Main Street and all that.
MS:
Yes.
SKR:
21
�Okay. But I remember coming out the front door, they had not widened the street to be big, like it probably
is today. I haven't seen (it) in a while. But as we were walking down the walkway to, I'm not good at North,
South, East and West. But we would be coming out, we're going to go to the right. Yeah. Towards the post
office. And my granddad said, across the street was coming a white guy and a little boy, about my age. And
my grandfather said "Sanders, in a minute we go have to get off the sidewalk. So that man and that boy can
pass." And I looked up at him and I said, "Why?" And he said, "Don't question me just do what I say." So, I
said, "Well, Papa, we step out on the street, we might get hit." So, he said, "Don't- just hold on to me tight."
I'll never forget us stepping off the sidewalk to let them pass by and me and that little boy. We kept looking
back at each other. And that- to this day, I wonder, was he thinking the same thing I was thinking? Why do
we have to, why do those people have to get off the sidewalk? I just- I watched him talk to my granddad
like, boy, you know, he's older than them. Like it was stripping him of his pride.
MS:
Sure. This is College Park, 1950s and 60s.
SKR:
That's right, College Park. Yes.
MS:
When you were young, in school, as a student, were you, what were you thinking your future? What did you
dream about doing?
SKR:
Oh, I always wanted to be a judge.
MS:
A judge?
SKR:
Yes, first, I wanted to go to law school. And then I wanted to become a judge and hopefully got- get
appointed to the highest court. But that didn't work out. The day I graduated from high school, I told my
mother that I want to go to Morris Brown, then to John Marshall Law School. Start me a practice. And I
forgive her for what she told me. But she said "I don't know how you're going to do that because we can't
afford that. You need to get you a job with some benefits at the McDonald's." And I'm saying, I'm looking at
her saying "What?" So, I got married and, right out of high school. But I did go on to a school, tried to get out
of school fast and ended up being at a mob laundering-money place. That was in East Point. It was called
Career Business Institute. Went all the way to time to graduate and then there's a padlock on the door.
MS:
Why?
SKR:
Because it's- Oh, yeah, that was federal. It was mob, mob money.
22
�MS:
Oh.
SKR:
Mafia.
MS:
I see.
SKR:
They were laundering- laundering money through that business.
MS:
So, what did you do after you- after that?
SKR:
Well after that, let's see, I started- Oh, I worked for MARTA.1 I was the first receptionist for MARTA. Then I
started selling Mary Kay Cosmetics. So, I say there's more than one way to skin this cat. Because my idea of
success was to make six figures. That's the- and that was a young girl back then I did it, at age 20. And my
mother said, “Do you realize how much money is going through your hands? It's too much money for a
young girl.” So, I'm saying "Wait a minute. What? Okay." But I found out my mother's mother, the one with
the fifth-grade education, is the one that said “Do better than me.” Because I would go to her on, on Rugby
Avenue where she was working in the houses for the white women. And I would just walk around in that
house. She said, "Don't touch anything." And I said, "I won't grandma but when I grow up, I'm going to have
a house like this." And she said, "Well, I hope you do, baby. I want you to be better than me." So, I've always
wanted to not think I'm better than anybody else. But I did not want to just remain at the level where some
people think if you come from humble beginnings, you don't go above that. But I've never thought that- I
always say the sky is the limit and just like my granddad told me- said, "Sanders I don't care what kind of
job it is." I don't know about profanity so- on, on your show so I'm going to leave that part out, what he says
beep, beep. But he said, “I want you to be the best, beep person there is.”
MS:
A lot of beeps.
SKR:
Yeah, a lot of beeps. And I grew up with those good working ethics and every job I had, I've always excelled.
MS:
How much- how much is your experience at Eva Thomas and the sit-ins and, you've- you've really hit on
some, you know, some powerful and disturbing kind of things. How much is, you know, that whole
collective experience growing up through high school in College Park at Eva Thomas, what is that- What
have you taken from that as you look back now and how has it affected your life afterwards?
1
Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority (MARTA)
23
�SKR:
Thank you for asking me this. I've taken all of that, it was really traumatic sometimes and the happy timesI've let myself not ever want to be bitter for somebody else's hateful heart and I look at every individual as
a human being regardless if they like me or not. And it has taught me to be strong, loving, with my faith- I
think I'm a- I think I'm that girl. If I can't help you better your life, because I know what it is to be
discriminated against. I know what it is, within my own people. I wasn't wanted there as a little child. I
couldn't go up the street, so I used to say "Well, where do I fit in?" But I just treat- some people will have
taken all that and become very bitter and hate white people. I just believe one day still, it's all going to beeverybody's going to understand that this outer shell is only an outer shell. Inside, we are all the same. So,
some people say "Well, good luck with that one."
MS:
Well, you know, I mean, clearly the past couple years, well, we certainly haven't achieved, you know,
perfection here in this world. AndSKR:
Nope.
MS:
It makes me- it makes me want to ask you, um, you know, because of what you just said, you've
experienced, you know, kind of discrimination from different angles. What would you say to, you know, our
students who may hear this message through an exhibit or through your oral history? What would you say
to them about where we are today? And what would be the message you would want to deliver? You'd
want them to hear from all this? Now that's a very heavy question. ButSKR:
Yes.
MS:
I'll give you a minute. Take your time.
SKR:
Yes, I would want them to hear that you must look beyond your obvious dislike, if you are feeling like- get
to know somebody first before you judge. None of us are the same. But because a person's economic status,
social, or you know, however, don't judge them by that. Get to know the individual. And I'm still thinking
what else to say- because you, that was a heavy big question.
MS:
That was a heavy question.
SKR:
Repeat it to me again. So, make sure I24
�MS:
What would be your message today, to our students, or to any youth? What would be your message thatgoing forward, that you've learned from all this- and you would want them to know going forward?
SKR:
Well, another thing I would say is don't let hate deter you from striving to be your best person.
MS:
Perfect.
SKR:
So that's exactly what I did. Do you know how I felt when I'm in the Black community and the kids don't
want me there?
MS:
You experienced that a lot?
SKR:
Yes. To this day, I still- there are women, Black women that are dark skinned. They don't like me from just
viewing me.
MS:
When- when you went to a formerly all-white school, or predominantly all-white school after (the) Eva
Thomas experience. I mean, how were you treated by white people, as a high schooler coming to their
school? "To their school," I say in air quotes.
SKR:
They accepted me better than my Black people did.
MS:
Is that right?
SKR:
And someone will say, “Oh, I can tell you got some of our blood.”
MS:
Hm.
SKR:
That's right. I was accepted. One young lady. I don't think I- I'm not going to call- Can I call a name?
MS:
25
�That- sure. You can always, we can always- edit it out. It's notSKR:
Okay. I'll never forget, we play basketball together. Her name was Woo Woo. A nickname, Carolyn. Carolyn
comes from a very racist family. She was an only child.
MS:
She's white?
SKR:
She's white. And Woo Woo- They lived in this big old, beautiful house with the big columns and everything.
And she told me she said, "San, I come from a racist family. I don't ever want to be nothing like that." So, it
was me, and I thought it was my best friend with us, Amanda. We were in her car, but anyway we went to
Woo Woo's house. And Woo Woo's mother came to the door and said, "What you think you doing?" And she
said, "Well, I'm here with my friends." Now I'm light, Amanda is dark. So, Woo Woo got out to bring- said
"Come on y'all." And her mother pointed and said "that n-word. That n***** can't come in but that one
right-" pointed at me, I was okay.
MS:
She was pointing at Amanda first. Said she can't- she can't come. But you can.
SKR:
And I ask Amanda does she remember this? And she said she didn't remember that. Well, of course, we all
are getting older, but she was with us. And Woo Woo told her mother. "If both of my friends can't come in,
I'm not coming in." and she got in her new car. And she sped off. And we said, "Ooh, you going to get in
trouble." She said, "I hate that. I hate racism. We are all the same. What's wrong with folk. I saw, I heard
with all this about Black people, Black people." Well, that Black they then use that word, it was the N word.
MS:
Yes, ma'am.
SKR:
For that, I often think about Woo Woo. She said she would never ever raise her kids to be like they brought
her up. Last time I heard that she was at a country recording studio, where her name was Carolyn Woods.
Yeah, that was- I just wish more people with these kids today, especially young Black kids, these gangs. I
wonder, do they think? What is obvious, they do not think. They don't know the struggle.
MS:
Right? WellSKR:
I mean, up. We were- let’s see, I went to- it was an Amoco service station on Main Street. And I didn't pay
any attention. I wanted to go to the bathroom. And they said "You can't go around there, can't you read?"
26
�And that's when I saw the sign ‘colored, whites only.’ They haven't experienced that. But that experience
has made a lot of people, Black people, bitter and they are still bitter. I understand. I mean, I try to
empathize with them. But I was brought up in this- but they would say you, you really not Black so you
can't talk. Oh, let me tell you about when the ‘I'm Black and I'm proud’ came out.
MS:
Okay.
SKR:
I was told I didn't have the right to say that.
MS:
And this was when you were- when you were likeSKR:
In high school.
MS:
In high school. So, you were kind of stripped of those rights by others.
SKR:
Well, I- I know. I'm just saying that the meanness to- they don't realize how this still affected me. But it still
didn't stop me. It didn't make me a bitter person. At all. I had a Facebook post one day and I said to some of
you College Park people who used to call me the white girl. Um, hey guess what? I'm still that person. Which
I know what y'all can do for me now.
MS:
That's great. Anything else?
SKR:
Well, I wish- no, no, I'm saying this first. Thank you.
MS:
Thank you.
SKR:
Thank you for caring, thank you for caring, to want to keep the memory and the injustice, to let it be known
what we went through. I mean, it was- we- I'm from College Park, but I'm from a villageMS:
Yes.
SKR:
27
�-within a village. That's the only way they look at that because we were segregated. We could- Oh, did
anybody tell you that we can even go up and watch the white kids play at- Anybody told you this? Okay. The
little community. Are you familiar with the area?
MS:
I am- You know what? Just in the past five years.
SKR:
Oh, just in the past five years.
MS:
Yeah. So, I don't- have a frame of reference for what College Park used to be beyond it's- what it is now.
SKR:
Okay.
MS:
That's kind of why I asked you about the- or I asked everybody about the urban renewal and how it
changed the city. Because a lot of our researchers won't know College Park historically either, if that
answers your question. But you go ahead with your story. I'm sorry.
SKR:
Okay, we could not even- there's Conley Avenue, and- but that's- Princeton continues on up. And it's, if it's
still there. But the baseball fields used to be on the left.
MS:
Okay.
SKR:
At College Park High. Well, we would go up there just to watch the kids play. And the white people would
come and tell us we couldn't be there, like shooing us back. Go back to where you belong. It's an invisible
line. We were segregated by an invisible line. And we knew not to cross those lines. First, there wasn't even
a fence there. Then they put a fence up. That's to keep us out.
MS:
Wow.
SKR:
And I remember going- see, every day, they would stop us and shine a big spotlight on me. But I can
remember people when the class- Oh, this is another story: in our little street where I live, the back of our
house was like a little alleyway. And we would take the shortcut, me and my sister, to go down Mr. Mac's
drive in to get some cookies. Okay. Well, this guy had on his Klan outfit, but his face was showing. So, he
told us, he said you little n***** gals don't come through here. So, I grabbed my sister's hand then we ran
back home. And I told Papa, what we just witnessed. And he said- Well, I was saying in a little child's voice
28
�back then. But he said, um, "Y'all- y'all need to go the long way." So, I said to myself, "I wonder, have they
actually caught some of the older people going through there and beat them?" Just, they would do stuff like
that. I just, it was a fear. We were raised with fear. And that's traumatic. So, I think everybody in College
Park should be paid something for all- what we went through.
MS:
Sure.
SKR:
But, I'm serious about- that was trauma.
MS:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. From what I've heard today, I can understand. I can see that. UmSKR:
Oh, and one more thing. One more thing.
MS:
Sure.
SKR:
Okay, when I was 13, I was at the Winn Dixie store off Main Street. My mother and I were shopping, and I
was pushing the buggy. And the little white girl had to be about six, seven. And she said “Mommy look.
There’s a n***** girl,” and I turn. And my mother said, "We need these groceries, let's keep moving, don't
pay attention." That's and- they instill this- well, we know that, they're still going on: hatred.
MS:
So, there were businesses you could or could not go into?
SKR:
Oh, yes, that's right.
MS:
Were there businesses that were strictly for the Black community in College Park?
SKR:
Yes, those- those would be the little mom and pop stores in our village. Like Mr. Mac's Drive In, where they
tried to make it nice to drive in. You go in there and they fix little sandwiches and stuff for you. Then we
have Mr. Barnes. All these were little mom and pop, little neighborhood stores.
MS:
Sure.
29
�SKR:
And then they would let the- our parents have a- run a tab because you know they didn't make that much
money. And I’m trying to remember how many stores. I know missed that one. 1, 2, 3 maybe four that
remember? Then they built Black-owned, Bussies Grocery Store. Has anyone told you about that yet?
MS:
Um, I- it- the names familiar, but they haven't told me about it.
SKR:
Ross Bessie, it was his family. He was in my class. Now that was a big deal. We get our- they had the
laundromat and grocery store. So that was a big thing. There are a lot of successful people that came out of
College Park. I guess you already know this.
MS:
I've- Yes. And in particularly, your age group.
SKR:
Uh, me?
MS:
Your- Your generation has been- The names have been passed around that I've heard. So, yes. Have you
been back to College Park? When's the last time you were there?
SKR:
I haven't been back recently since all this change. I mean, they said, you can't even tell what was what?
MS:
Well, yeah, it's changed. I mean, it changed a lot in your time. And I know, it's changed a lot just since I've
been here. And I've been in the area since the ‘90s. So, it's taking on a different look. But I can sense it's still,
like you said, the village within the village and your, your group being, staying so close is, you know, is a
product of that, and speaks… So, what took you to Kan(sas)? And I should say that Sandra right now, we've
been on this call for about an hour and I don't if you have other obligations. Just let me know. If you don't
mind, I'd like to ask another question or two.
SKR:
Oh, no, no problem.
MS:
Okay, great. Thank you. So, what, what events- what took you to Kansas? Where you are now, in Topeka.
How'd you get there?
SKR:
30
�Oh, okay. When, um, when I worked for General Motors in Atlanta, they closed the executive office where I
was and my brother had come to Olathe, Kansas. And he started a business. And I've always loved fashion.
And I had got my business license. And I was actually selling out of the trunk of my car really. In Atlanta,
when I was dressing everybody at GM. So, my brother said, "Since you're not working now- Kansas, they
need you up here with fashion." So, he said, "I will help you open up a place." He did. I have a beautiful
store. Then I got depressed. When I came from Atlanta, I was married to somebody. Now you get a minute, I
will take you around then (and) tell you about this story. Okay?
MS:
Okay, that's fine.
SKR:
Okay?
MS:
All right.
SKR:
When I- Okay, I was married to a guy by the name of Robin Johnson. Now, when I started getting depressed,
Robin said that I just, I was lazy. So, my depression kept getting bad till I was really full blown depressed.
Now, my husband that I'm married to now, his sister and I worked together at MARTA back in 1973. Excuse
me. I hadn't seen Pat in about 20 years. So, she wanted to come visit me in Olathe. I'm still married to
Johnson. I didn't want her to come because I was depressed. I even made my dog depressed. I had a Chow
Chow. But she never knew she was a dog. Because she was small. She thought she was a human.
MS:
I have one of those. Yes.
SKR:
You have a chow?
MS:
Not a chow. I haveSKR:
But a dog. Okay.
MS:
Dog slash child.
SKR:
We have so- you understand me.
MS:
31
�Yes.
SKR:
Her name was Lady Pebbles Johnson. Well Pebbles- they sit stuff with- they love when they love you. So, I
would just lay in the bed all the time. And when we would- I would take her for a walk. And do you know
she would just sit? She did not want to go back in the house. She was trying to tell me it wasn't healthy for
me. But that husband told me that I was no more use to man, that I wasn't any- wasn't beautiful like I used
to be and he wished I would just die. So, he let the house actually go into foreclosure. The lights, everything
was turned off. So, what I did- that's why I believe in honesty, I called the light, power, everybody, I told the
truth. I'm married to man who no longer loved me and I don't have the money right now, or know what to
do. Now that's- no, that's after I opened the business because I had to close it because I was too depressed.
Told my brother it wasn't going to work. Okay. So, my dream of having boutiques- Were you about to say
something?
MS:
No, no, no, no, go ahead.
SKR:
Okay. So, my dream of having stores and all major cities and abroad is on the back burner now. I'm still
holding on to my license. But okay, so I used to lay there and look at the bed, at the ceiling and pray and say,
“Well, what am I going to do?” So, I called the mortgage company, told them what was what. Do you know,
those people let me stay in the house a year? I mean, it was like favors whether it's called here with me,
which you’re about to hear how blessed I am. Okay? So, when Pat came to see me, she stayed four days. But
on the way back, she didn't tell me this right away, but on the way back, she says she cried. She called her
brother, George. That's who I'm married to now. And she- George was married during the time, but his wife
died. They had been married 30 years. And she died at the VA hospital here. Okay? So, Pat said, "You know,
my brother I told you about, lives in Topeka?" I said, "Yeah." "Well, you know, my sister-in-law passed." "I
saw, I'm sorry to hear that." And, but she didn't let me know that she was talking to George. Let George
know about her girlfriend. And the relationship I was in wasn't right. So, George said, "Your friend can
come stay with me. I got this three-bedroom home. Just me." George took me and my dog in. Because we
were homeless. They closed- foreclosed the house. George took me and my dog in as a favor. Not as this
woman. But as his sister's good friend. Now, George did- He's a Vietnam vet. He did six tours to Vietnam. He
was aboard the Enterprise. He was in the Navy over the Enterprise when she got blew up. So, he's 100%
total permit service connected. George was the perfect gentleman for me. But wasn’t anybody going to be
looking at me as- a woman, the way I was looking. But he took me in her- he was dating the judge here andMS:
The Judge.
SKR:
[inaudible]- judge and I was the little, his little administrative assistant. I was sending flowers. And they
would go out on dates. And when George come back I said, "George how did your date go?" he's all, "I don't
think that's going to work Sandy." because he's like, he's 11 years older than I am. So he said, "I don't think
32
�that's going to work." So, I said, "Why?" I'm all serious. He said, "Nah, just think God wants me do something
else." Okay. I had no idea he was thinking about me. So, when only- when one day he told me he said, "You
know, my sister told me what I see is not you." She said, he told "She, Pat, said that you are moving the
shaker, a go getter." And I would just cry all the time. He said, "You (are) my- My dove with a broken wing."
And I lost it. I said, "Nobody never said that to me." He said, " Well there's more to you than what- you're
just depressed." So, I said, "Yeah, I'm depressed." But he still didn't say anything like he was thinking about
marrying me. So, this was like, let's say I moved in with him (in) 2004. Okay, March, the end of the year
going into Christmas. He said, "Sandy, you want to see my papers about me? My PTSD and stuff?" I said, "No
why?" And he said, "Well, I want to marry you. If I marry you, we're going to get you taken care of. And
you're not ever going to have to worry about nothing." He said, "Well, I only make a Social Security and my
veterans pay." Well, he knows I've been used to big figures and big houses and all that, right? He had just a
little house and a little raggedy truck, right? So, I said, "Wow, George." He said, "I promise you things will
get better." Now my birthday is February the second, his February the fifth. So, we have a lot right there,
that Aquarius thing. But um, we got married that July. And this is like I'm living the best life I ever lived. On
the fixed income. The judge when I was married, you would’ve thought it was some high profile divorce
with Johnson. He wanted half of my pension from GM. He wanted proceeds from the business that I had
started, but the lawyer told me to close the business account and just let everything be zero. He said- had a
detective- private detective following me at George’s house saying that George was my man. All the while,
the lawyers laughed and said they (are) not going to- judge won't even believe that. This- that's not what
happened. The man actually fell in love with you after the fact. So, I teased George. Said "You know what, I
beat the judge." But it's- That's how I got to Topeka.
MS:
Yeah.
SKR:
George is in Topeka. He came from Minnesota. He wants to bring me back to Atlanta. But the VA
misdiagnosed him. I want you to- You got a pencil, can you write my website down? And you can look at it.
MS:
Actually. Yes. And I'm- I was going to ask you to tell- tell us about that before we get off. So, but go ahead.
Yes. What's your website?
SKR:
It's www.Sandra RuckersAngels.org.
MS:
Dot org. That's S A N- for our researchers S A N D R A R U C K E R A N G E L S dot org.
SKR:
Rucker's. With apostrophe. Sandra Rucker's angels
MS:
33
�With Apostrophe S angels. Perfect. Go right ahead.
SKR:
The VA misdiagnosed George. Said he has- the doctor never did check him or anything. He just pat him on
the back and said “George I think, you have the flu.” Well, for three weeks, we (were) thinking it was the flu,
but he was getting worse. He didn't have symptoms of a flu, I mean, sniffles, no signs of a flu. So that third
week, we went back, and they come to find out it was congestive heart failure all the while. So, they had to
rush him to another hospital. And I didn't know anything about advocating, then. I just knew that I had
faith. And that something had to be done. Because the VA was trying to bring him back. I have written up a
complaint. So, the doctor in the ER told me that there were blood clots in all his major organs. And that they
didn't have the medical staff to save him so they could send him to [inaudible]. Okay, we all had been
married like 15 months then. So, they send the [inaudible], the next day. The VA calls me so they want to
prove to me that they are (a) good hospital. So, they want to bring him back. And I said no, no, no, you're
not going to kill him. What changed overnight? So, I will- it was snowing during that time. So, I will walk
around I said "God, what am I going to do?" And someone would say call the news people. And it's like,
maybe 4:40, because everybody closes at five. So, I call the new station. They say "Well, ma'am, why don’t
you call Nancy Border. Congresswoman Nancy Border." So, I call Congresswoman Nancy Border. I'm going
to speed it up a little bit here for you, I call Congresswoman Nancy Border's office, told her what was going
on. I would just cry. And this guy said, "Don't worry. I (will) call you back in a few minutes. 10 minutes to
five now." Do you know in 10 minutes he was at the hospital. George stayed there for 32 days fighting for
his life. I was going to, because I was depressed, I told you that when I got with George, so I was going to see
the psychiatrist at the VA and group therapy. And I was sitting in a group with these 20 vets. And I say, "You
know what? I could say, well, I didn't help George." And I looked at the psychologist, I said, "Dr. [inaudible],
I got something else in mind." And she said, "What's that Sandra?" And I pointed around I say, I'm going to
spend the rest of my life fighting for all you guys. Because I don't want anything, you should experience
what I experienced with yours." So, when I got home, I started, I called and said, "I want to start a business."
So, they said, "What you want to name it?" Said, "Sandra Rucker's Angels. The veterans are my angels." So,
the lady said, "Wow, that's a good name." So, it's been like, maybe 14 years now I've been in business. And
I've been to DC with my cause. I've been interviewed by the law professor here. I've been on TV several
times. They tried to figure out how the only difference between me, the American Legion, and the DAV isthey have all those millions of people. Just me, myself and I. I've been to court several times, (a) judge told
me I was most impressive. I've won all my cases. And I found out too that before like I wanted to be a career
person. But the best job is this job right here being an advocate. And to see the looks on the vets' face when
I give them their 100%. My nickname at the VA is the Pitbull. Thank you for listening to my story. I just, I
made it short. But I want you to go to my page and you read about me.
MS:
We'll encourage, encourage, everybody to do that. That's wonderful work. Maybe everything else has
prepared you for that. I don't know. You could speak to that. I couldn't but…
SKR:
I think you're right. You're right. Yeah.
34
�MS:
Thank you once again forSKR:
And I'm going to say thank you.
MS:
…all your stories. And I am, I'm stopping the recording right now.
35
�
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Oral Histories
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Oral Histories collected from alumni, students, teachers and staff of the Fulton County School System, 1980s-present.
Creator
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Fulton County Schools Archives, Hapeville, Ga
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Mike Santrock
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Sandra Kimble Rucker
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Fulton County Schools Archives, Teaching Museum South, Hapeville, Georgia
Topeka, Kansas
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1:22:30
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Oral History (transcript), Sandra Kimble Rucker, November 21, 2021
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This interview contains language that users could find inappropriate or offensive. Derogatory terms have been redacted where appropriate but remain part of the transcript to reflect individual experience and historical integrity. The Fulton County Schools Archives does not endorse any derogatory language related to race or identity.
Georgia--Fulton County
Kansas--Topeka
College Park
Eva Thomas High School
College Park High School
Headland High School
Jefferson Franklin Beavers Elementary School
segregation
integration
Description
An account of the resource
Sandra Kimble Rucker is a native of College Park, Georgia. As a child, she attended Jefferson Franklin Beavers Elementary School. Her time as a student at Eva Thomas High School overlapped with the integration of the surrounding high schools and by the time Rucker graduated from College Park High School in 1971 (a formerly all-white high school), she had attended three separate secondary schools – Eva Thomas and Headland being the other two. At the time of this interview, Rucker lived in Topeka, Kansas, where she founded Sandra Rucker’s Angels, a non-profit organization dedicated to American Service veterans.
A video recording of this oral history will be made available soon.
Creator
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Fulton County Schools Archives, Hapeville, Georgia
Mike Santrock
Sandra Kimble Rucker
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Fulton County Schools Archives, Hapeville, Georgia
Date
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2021
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a><br />Direct questions regarding use to archives@fultonschools.org
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Document-transcript, 34 pages
Video recording, 1:22:30
FCS Archives
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2021.ohfc.5
College Park
College Park High School
Eva Thomas High School
Headland High School
MARTA
segregation
-
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PDF Text
Text
Jessica Muhammad
November 17, 2021, 1 pm
Fulton County Schools Archives, Teaching Museum South, Hapeville, Georgia
Jessica Muhammad (formerly Jessica Allen) was born in Fayette County, Georgia in the 1950s. She attended
elementary school in both Fayette County and for a time in the city of Atlanta. After moving to College Park,
she attended Eva Thomas High School and College Park High School – eventually graduating from Henry M.
Turner High School (City of Atlanta) in 1971. Muhammad was a student leader in the sit-ins and protests
surrounding Eva Thomas High in 1969 and carried her activism into her adulthood, when she worked on both
Lonnie King’s and Andrew Young’s campaigns to win the US congressional seat from Georgia’s Fifth District.
JM:
Yeah. Well, I'm now looking through this yearbook. Eva Thomas High School for the year of '66, 1966 and,
actually, this this was before my time. I think I came in '67 from Fayette County Training School.
MS:
What does it mean a training school?
JM:
I'm so glad you asked. In the days of segregation. Here in the South. Most of the schools were distinguished
by having training school to indicate the black school. Okay. The white schools were just regular high
schools, or elementary schools. But for the Black schools, they were training schools. So that's a carryover
from the mentality that African American people apparently did not have the aptitude for Scholastic
academic work, but we're better off being trained. To do I suppose manual labor, labor for the industrial
era.
MS:
Industrial training. Yeah. For sure. Well, so. So, you came from Fayette County. So, let's, let's go back there.
And let's talk about if you would just kind of tell us about your childhood.
JM:
Oh.
MS:
Tell us about your family.
JM:
Yeah, I will. So, my mother. Her name was Airy (sp.?) Arnold. And her parents were Mamie and John Henry
Arnold. Mamie came from an Arnold owner. Her family did and so did John Henry. So, Mamie Arnold
married John Henry Arnold. Now, that does not mean that they were not the same slave master. Matter of
-1-
�fact the story we were told is that Parker Arnold owned most of the Arnold's who descended or came out of
that enslavement.
MS:
So, your grandparents? Your directly, they were slaves?
JM:
No, no, no. But my great, great grandparents were.
MS:
Great, great grandparents.
JM:
Yes.
MS:
And they had theyJM:
They were Arnold's as well.
MS:
They took the name of the master.
JM:
Yes, yes, they took the name of the Master.
MS:
Was that typical?
JM:
Yes, that was typical. And I'm told that it was typical, because with plantations having the name of the
owner after emancipation in the so-called freeing of the enslaved then- they- we were seeking our families.
So, the way to know how to find your family, was that, okay, they were at the Arnold plantation. So, if you
were sold off to somebody in Alabama, then the way to look for your people would be the go back to where
you came from. And that would be the Arnold. So, there was some kind of connection there.
MS:
I see. Yeah, there was no other way. Yeah.
JM:
Yeah, well, identity. Yes. And, of course, you know, back then, if you've looked at this movie 13th… Or if you
know anything about the 13th Amendment, you were subjected to being imprisoned, if you are walking
-2-
�these roads without an address. Loitering could get you in the chain gang. And you being leased back to the
same plantation owner that you just got free from.
MS:
And this is this is pre–Civil War, then,
JM:
No, this is Post- Civil War. Right. So, if you get a chance to look at that, if you haven't seen it, Netflix, 13th
amendment.
MS:
I'm going to write that down.
JM:
Directed by Ava DuVernay.
MS:
And so, you had siblings?
JM:
Yes, I have five siblings. I was born on 54 highway and Fayette County by a midwife, same midwife that
delivered me, delivered my mother. And this was during Jim Crow time and a very terrorizing period for
my family. Because we were sharecroppers. Yeah. And so, we were subjected to really the laws of Jim Crow,
you know, very segregated. My grandfather worked for $5 a week to plow and cultivate the fields for the
landowner. And my grandfather died at the age of 52. From alcoholism because that was his way of
anesthetizing himself against the inhuman, almost, uh, well dehumanizing practices of that time.
MS:
That's your grandfather?
JM:
Yes. My grandfather John Henry Arnold.
MS:
Do you remember him?
JM:
Oh, of course I do. Yeah, he was a manly man, in so many ways. Great farmer. Mechanical. He was, he was a
hunter gatherer of all of those things that probably Davy Crockett would do. That's right. Yeah.
MS:
And that Fayette County for our researchers is, where is that, according to Atlanta?
-3-
�JM:
That's about 30 minutes. Less than now, of course, but just about 30 minutes south of Atlanta… right there,
you know, that now is considered Fayette County… part of Metropolitan Atlanta. But back then it was like a
world away. I have so many stories from my grandparents about how my granddaddy would come to
Atlanta to get certain supplies and whatnot. But it was like a weekend trip. Yeah. Because they had you
know, buggies… well, wagons and a mule that they traveled. Yeah.
MS:
Sure. So that was a n- So that's the context in which your parents then…grew up on a on a farm. Yes, yes.
With your grandparents being sharecroppers.
JM:
Yes. And may I say this?
MS:
Absolutely.
JM:
Um, my father grew up in Henry County.
MS:
Okay.
JM:
And his situation was similar but dissimilar in that his parents were landowners. They owned their little
land that their house was on. So, the sharecropping situation was much different from my father's situation,
which he seemed to have had more opportunity, as a result of not being in this sharecropping kind of thing.
MS:
And it kind of speaks to the fact that it was, you know, it's so complicated. Everybody's individual, where
they come from, right?
JM:
Yeah.
MS:
It's notJM:
Yeah.
MS:
-4-
�It's not all sharecropper, all landowner. There's so many backgrounds. There's not one story. There's…
there's a common thread in Jim Crow.
JM:
That's right. That's right for my, my paternal grandfather, who I never met, by the way. He died a couple of
years before I was born. But he would catch a train and come to Atlanta and worked in the state building,
the state capitol as a janitor. So, he made money that way. Yeah, he was able to take care of his family that
way. And my great grandmother on- well, no, my grandmother. No, she was my great grandmother. My
great grandmother was a teacher, and the school was next door to their house. And so, she went to Spelman
before Spelman became Spelman College. Yeah. So, you know, there was a big, a great contrast. My
grandma, great mother on my mother's side, my maternal grandmother. She went as far as eighth grade.
But that's where schools stopped for them. Sure, in that county at eighth grade.
MS:
Yeah. And that kind of… that theme of stopping at eighth grade went well into the 20th century too. We've
seen from our archive, particularly with Black schools where Black students had to find transportation into
Atlanta if they wanted, if they lived in rural part of Fulton County. There were- there were no, like you said
grades past eight, so had to find their way to run a part of their education.
JM:
Yeah. And I'm sure you are familiar with the Rosenwald systems. Well, the school that my great
grandmother taught in was a Rosenwald school and the street that she lived on is called Rosenwald Drive.
Even now, in Hampton.
MS:
We had one East Point school, which eventually became South Fulton was started as a Rosenwald. It didn't
start as a Rosenwald it started as a community school that the Black community had built. But then they got
a building through the Rosenwald program, which as you know, was a shared expense… shared kind of
endeavor to build one. Yeah, so East Point, which became South Fulton, was one.
JM:
I did not realize that.
MS:
It's cool, because, you probably know, this Fisk University has a database where you can go look at all the
Rosenwald school pictures.
JM:
No, I didn't. Okay, I will. I will do that just as the same as… my grandma's hang out.
MS:
She taught there?
-5-
�JM:
Yes. Yes.
MS:
That's really cool.
JM:
Yeah.
MS:
So, you must have an appreciation for all this broad spectrum of experience.
JM:
Even now. Yes, yes, of course. And just sitting here, having this conversation with you, Mike, I'm realizing
why I, who I am, you know, in that I'm… a river, the earth and my connection with it. And that's as a result
of being on that sharecropping farm and being able to escape the terror. When we would go deep into the
woods to play with my great granddaddy, when he goes fishing, you know, in the swamp, we would… he
would take us with him, and we could be anything we wanted to be in the woods. I could be a princess
there. I could be a pirate. Anything I wanted to be in those woods while I was playing and escape, uh, you
know, the terror of, you know, are we going to have a cross burned in our yard? You know, is the owner
going to open up the door to the house anytime he wants to while I'm sitting there in the tin tub, you know,
taking a bath? It was not just the obvious, but even the stuff that came across TV, you know, was not
pleasurable, or conducive to African existence, the African Americans’ existence, if that makes any sense.
So, it was… it was- yeah.
MS:
One of the questions that I was that I've tried to ask everybody is at what point, you know, and usually I'm
in elem- we're talking about elementary school at this point… about when you had a realization of that
context of, you know, racism and segregation. It sounds like that you were almost born into…
JM:
I was. I realized it. Yeah. From the very moment that I went to the Sunday school class. And even though I
love those beautiful cards, they used to give us cards in Sunday school class, beautiful colors on it, but it had
the white Jesus.
MS:
Right.
JM:
Okay.
MS:
Right.
-6-
�JM:
God is white. And me, as I exist, and the contrast was, just like I said, an eye opener even for a child. Yeah.
Yeah, Amos and Andy on television, when everybody you wants to run to look at Amos and Andy… and this
is what? They're representing me?
MS:
That's what we get.
JM:
Yeah. Yeah. And, um, oh, even though I didn't have a contrast regarding books, and what was being
represented in the library. And what I mean by that, is that, you know, all we had was whites, I didn't have a
contrast to see that there were… it was even the potential of having some books that represented who I am
as an African American and in the things that we've achieved and contributed to this culture, to this
country. I kept reading hoping that there was something in there and I read every book that… and this is a
back to the other side of my family. Okay, well, my paternal side, I have such a great love for intellect and
more education ‘to a certain degree.’ [JM uses air quotes]
MS:
What do you mean by that?
JM:
I guess what that means is that, uh, I like to read. Okay. Okay, I love to read. [laughs] But the other stuff, you
know, it was like, I'm still you know… well, they call it a Pythagorean theory. I would never learn that.
MS:
You're preaching to this choir. For me, it's history reading too. I mean. So, I don't try math. I have a son,
who's a scientist.
JM:
Yeah. How wonderful. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, we want our children to be better than us.
MS:
For sure.
JM:
That's right. Good, good. Yeah. But oh, but when I was saying about that, is that, you know, I had this thirst
for finding something that would validate who I am. And it became real apparent, you know, what the Tom
Dick, or Tom? …(I was) nowhere in there. No where.
MS:
So, there was… So-
-7-
�JM:
No representation.
MS:
Where did you find this material? Where were you looking? Was this like the public library or just your
school? Or?
JM:
You mean, which material?
MS:
Well, whatever books you were combing through?
JM:
Oh, no. Everywhere… Yeah. Yeah. Everywhere. Right…. Yeah. And, unfortunately, and this is, you know,
aside from what we're talking about right now, but we're being fed some stuff now through media that is
working against us in pretty much the same way, you know, in terms of our humanity.
MS:
Yeah, well, I mean, hold that thought. We don't need to stray too far from that. Maybe we'll talk about that
before we're done. So, you had brothers and sisters.
JM:
I have brothers and sisters. I have one sister, who, when the era came for us to choose desegregation in the
schools, and I forget what they call that you might remember. It was where you could, you could choose…
All right, you could choose to go to the white school or stay in your Black school.
MS:
Freedom of choice plan.
JM:
Something like that okay. And she chose to go to the white school. Yeah. And it was like, You, you, you
traitor.
MS:
Well, right?
JM:
Yeah. Yeah, we did. Yeah. And she did, in a sense, give off the air of superiority because she went to the
white school and we chose to stay.
MS:
Was she older than you?
-8-
�JM:
No younger. I'm the oldest of my, my clan.
MS:
How big your clan?
JM:
No, I… oh, how big is my clan?
MS:
How many siblings?
JM:
I have… five siblings by my mother. My father has more children. And there's another branch of us. And I'm
the oldest female in the clan.
MS:
So, when you were when you were a child, your name was Jessica Allen.
JM:
That's correct.
MS:
That's for our researchers that may be looking at other material. Jessica, Jessica Muhammad will be
referred to in that material as Jessica Allen.
JM:
That's correct.
MS:
When it comes to the Eva Thomas story.
JM:
That's correct.
MS:
I wanted to make sure to state that you, early on. Okay, so what was your sister's experience going to the
white school? Did she share that every day on a daily basis?
JM:
Not really, and you know, there's something that we'll have to talk about, and love for you to be able to talk
with her. Her memory's probably a lot better than mine. And she may… may be able to contribute a lot
-9-
�more than I'll be able to. And yeah, and mostly because of her personality and you know… who she is in the
sibling pool and whatnot. She's you know, she did well, she's done well in life. Yeah.
MS:
So, you would have been going to school the time we're… time period we're talking about that would have
been in the 1950s?
JM:
Yes, for Elementary School.
MS:
And you did not… you were in elementary school in Fayette.
JM:
Yes. I had a brief moment where I was in Atlanta Public Schools for kindergarten.
MS:
Okay.
JM:
Because my… Yeah, I guess I need to give you a little bit of a timeline here. Born in Fayette County, 1953.
Did kindergarten in Anderson Park Elementary School city of Atlanta. Did first grade at East Point
Elementary. And I don't know if it was East Point Elementary or South Fulton Elementary at that time, but
it was segregated… [inaudible]. Yeah. A year there. A lot of that has faded out of my memory because it was
also a traumatic time, my parents broke up. And yeah, and it was my mother searching to figure out what
she was going to do next. And so, we ended up there for a year. And then back to Fayette County, where I
was born… with my grandparents.
MS:
Oh, I see. So, you're living with your grandparents?
JM:
That's right.
MS:
For most of your elementary school.
JM:
That's right. Yeah.
MS:
And so, what was what were some memories from your early elementary school there? Do you have a
particular teacher or maybe a friend… or anything stick out?
- 10 -
�JM:
At South Fulton?
MS:
No, in Fayette.
JM:
Oh.
MS:
Yeah. I guess, in general… you're elementary school age.
JM:
Yes.
MS:
And I understand your parents... breaking up would have been a major memory.
JM:
Yeah.
MS:
Anything else?
JM:
Yeah. Let me let me share this with you, Mike. I'm glad you have the personality that you do. And you're
easy to talk to. Yeah. And, umMS:
Well, you're… you're interesting to listen to.
JM:
Thank you. Okay, so there was a big, big deal about having long hair as a Black person. In those days.
MS:
Really?
JM:
Oh, yeah. Just like [inaudible].
MS:
Even female?
- 11 -
�JM:
Yeah. Yeah, a positive big deal. Okay… um, I don't know if you've heard of colorism?
MS:
Actually no.
JM:
Okay, what colorism is where it is this thing in Black America where Black people prefer light skinned
people.
MS:
Okay.
JM:
Again, back to the brainwashing in the whole acculturation around the European look, you know, and being
white is right. Is God-like.
MS:
Almost like the doll experiment.
JM:
Yes. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And so, the hair was kind of connected to that… if you could straighten
your hair out, have it long and looking like white people. Then you're in, baby. And so, my mother made
sure, uh, even though we weren't living with her at this time, because she sent us back to my grandparents.
My grandmother made sure that every week we had our hair straightening and plaid it up beautifully. And
we had crisp dresses that we wore. And so even though we lived in a shack, pretty much what I thought
was a mansion in a way, because it was so full of love. And because all the grandchildren came there on
Sunday, or actually Saturday night, and spent the night with us all. There was a lot of grandchildren too.
Yeah, a lot of fun. And so that experience of being admired for- and because I had lived in Atlanta, in the
city. I was like, you know, a popular crisp kid, right? Yeah. So that was one of the things. The other thing is
that I had the same third grade teacher that my mother had had. My mother had a teacher. We had this
woman as a teacher. But it was several grades for my mother because back in her day, they clump them in
groups versus grades. You did first, second and third… one teacher, maybe. Third, fourth, and fifth, another
teacher, right?
MS:
And so, all those grades were in the same room?
JM:
Well, probably. Her school was bigger than my grandmother's one room class. I mean, one room school. I
think her school might have had five, six rooms. But my point is, that my teacher was old.
MS:
- 12 -
�Yeah.
JM:
So, she slept most of the time. [inaudible]… And one of the things that I know about myself is that I went to
school to prove the teachers wrong, from as early as I can remember. I would… I was looking to make the
teachers wrong.
MS:
Give us an example. Tell me what you mean.
JM:
Yes. Here's one that I would get a whooping for… at school. She would beat your back with the withMS:
The old teacher.
JM:
Yeah. "Miss Irene. Miss Irene. Mary and Tara can draw better than you. Miss Irene. There, is not a horse.
That's a pony." [laughing]
MS:
You were that kid… you must've- you must have been sent home a lot.
JM:
Are you kidding? From that long bus drive? No. If you missed that bus? Man. We have no cars to go pick you
up. Nobody's going. We didn't have a taxi. I didn't even have a telephone in the house.
MS:
Wow.
JM:
Yeah.
MS:
Was this- so you went there by… was it a school bus? Or was it a publicJM:
A school bus that turned around in our yard, which was, you know, a barn yard. And so, all the children who
live within, say half mile or so, we would sit on our front porch in the morning to be collected by that bus
that came through.
MS:
So basically, it made one stop.
- 13 -
�JM:
Yeah.
MS:
At least in your place.
JM:
That's right. Yeah. But that was always fun, too. You know? Yeah.
MS:
Were there other... were there other schools for Black students in your county at the time?
JM:
No. And it was elementary, I mean, first through 12th.
MS:
All the way through 12th?
JM:
Yeah.
MS:
In Fayette.
JM:
Yes.
MS:
And, and so you had a sense when you were young? That there were also white schools?
JM:
Yeah, I knew that. And they were elementary. They had an elementary school. Over there and a high school
over here.
MS:
Did you see their schools?
JM:
Yeah.
MS:
I mean, were they nearby? You can pass by them?
- 14 -
�JM:
Yeah.
MS:
And they look different, I imagine than your school did.
JM:
And we got their hand me downs. Their school stamp would be inside of our books.
MS:
I heard that from both Ursel and the Dudley's (who) were in here the other day.1
JM:
Oh, how sweet. Yeah, Miss- Ms. Emma? We always knew Mr. Dudley only as Mr. Dudley, but Emma Dudley
is… but- is actually a distant relative of mine too.
MS:
Is that right?
JM:
Yeah.
MS:
Yeah, there's this overwhelming sense of… community that I'm seeing from talking to everybody.
JM:
That's right. Yeah. And she was the math teacher for me and thank God.
MS:
She was, yeah. She did kind of boast a little of her math. Her abilities to teach math.
JM:
Oh, yeah.
MS:
She must have been something.
JM:
Yeah. Well, I don't… I can't attest. I was too busy.
Ursel Brown, Eva Thomas High School alum, Class of 1970 and Emma Dudley, Mathematics Department Head and
teacher at Eva Thomas High School.
1
- 15 -
�MS:
You're too busy arguing with her?
JM:
She just passed me. That’s why I said, “Thank God.”
MS:
You're the reader. Not the…
JM:
There you go.
MS:
Well, so… we've already touched on this a little bit. So, put us from that time where you left Fayette and you
came… did you come straight to College Park? From when you finally… okay, first, let me ask you this: how
old were you when you came to College Park?
JM:
I think I was 13. I think so.
MS:
So, sort of middle school age.
JM:
Yeah. And we came before school started. So, my… birthday comes in September. So, I think I turned 14. Is
it 14-year-old for ninth graders? You don't know either?
MS:
I'm a little passed that too.
JM:
So okay, so that was… but here we are. As I said earlier, pretty well read. Because when I go to my aunt's
house, I would read all the true romance, [laughs] all of that stuff. Ebony, Jet. They would be old, but I read
them. And the Civil Rights Movement is blossoming. And I'm seeing now in these- in the Ebony Magazineafros and commercials for Afro sheen and, and all the Nambi advertisement. That's for skin tone and
whatever. And so, when I come to College Park, I'm kind of ahead of the game on the look. And so, I'm… I'm
playing around with an afro every other weekend. And but I have no clothes. No, none of the stuff that the
other girls are wearing. So, I found a bag of stuff in the basement of my aunt's house that we moved into
from the country, and we pretty much had to move because it had gotten so bad for us there in Fayette
County. My- my grandfather died. My grandmother moved to College Park earlier and was living with her
sister and she got a job at JFB Elementary School2 as a… as a cook.
2
Jefferson Franklin Beavers Elementary School, College Park, Ga
- 16 -
�MS:
Okay. Yeah
JM:
And so, she would send us food. Leftover food that she had. And to the country. Every week we would get
these number 10 cans. Is that what you call it? Those big cans? Mike, I'm getting emotional here because
I'm remembering how we lived off of that food. Leftover food from the elementary school.
MS:
And they would send it to you… and she would send it to you...
JM:
Yeah.
MS:
What was her name?
JM:
My grandmother's name was Mamie Arnold.
MS:
Oh, you already… that's your grandmother.
JM:
And um, and her sister that she lived with. I'm- this is just for you. The sister that she lived with, was Dr.
Shirley Phillips’s mother.3
MS:
Wow, this world is getting smaller as we talk.
JM:
Yes.
MS:
Her sister.
JM:
Her sister's name is Lily Miles M I L E S. That's my grandmother's sister. And Shirley Phillips mother. Dr.
Shirley Phillips.
MS:
Yeah, that's incredible. That's incredible.
3
Dr. Shirley Phillips, teacher at Eva Thomas and Fulton County Schools Administrator (Head of Affirmative Action)
- 17 -
�JM:
We lived across the street on Harvard Hill… Harvard Avenue, in my Aunt Lilian's basement that moved us
up, because we had started in the wintertime. It got so bad that we started tearing the planks off the side of
the house to burn them. And we started with the kitchen because we didn't have food. So, we’d just take the
planks off the side of the house and burn that for firewood.
MS:
Do you remember the day, the night, the time when it was like, "Okay, we're going, we're leaving."
JM:
My sister does. And she talks about it. I don't remember it so well, but she said that our cousin, Thomas,
came and got us. It was like, enough.
MS:
Yeah, for sure. And so, you- but you, you already had family in College Park.
JM:
Yes. And we had a pretty deep base in College Park. My great grandparents had lived in College Park. And,
and that's how their children, Lily. I mean, yeah... Lizzie, did I say Lily? I meant Lizzie Miles. Excuse me.
MS:
Your grandmother’s sister.
JM:
Yes. Lizzie Miles.
MS:
Lizzie.
JM:
And across the street was her sister, Lillian. And. And so I had an uncle who had moved up. My mother had
two siblings. So, one of them was there already. And so, um now we're living in my aunt's basement, which
had one bedroom, a family room and a little kitchenette. And a… one bathroom. There were six children
and his cousin, Thomas, my mother and my grandma. All of us in that one-bedroom apartment down in,
um…
MS:
It must have been a crazy morning, every morning, getting up and getting yourself together.
JM:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And on top of that, I had a cousin who lived right up the street. Because we were who we
are. She insisted on living with us too.
- 18 -
�MS:
Sure. Why not? The more the merrier.
JM:
That's right… So, yeah. So, that was where we're at (with) Eva Thomas now coming up towards September.
MS:
I'll ask you something else first.
JM:
Yes.
MS:
Just real quick, inserted in there. So, you're just moved to College Park. A lot of people who will, who will
hear your voice, later on when they're doing their research about this wonderful story. They're going to be
like, “Well, what's College Park like, in the 50s? In the 1960s?” For the person who doesn't know anything
about it. What it was. Maybe you could describe it for a couple minutes.
JM:
Yes. Well, the, the area of town that I lived in really was College Park, in that all of the streets were named
after colleges and universities. I lived on Harvard Avenue.
MS:
We know there's a Princeton.
JM:
That's right and Yale and Rhodes, which was another street we moved to after my mother qualified for
federal housing. We ended up in an apartment on Rhodes Street. Yeah. And so, for… for me, it was like a
liberation moving from Fayette County to College Park. Now, everything is bigger for me, and you can walk
to places. When I was in rural Fayette County, you didn't walk places much. And my mother did not have a
car initially when we got to College Park. So, it was good that we could walk to where we needed… where
we needed to go. There was an A&P grocery store, who knows what an A&P grocery store is now, right?
How about a Colonial store, right? Okay.
MS:
We may not have had them in West Virginia.
JM:
Right. Well, these places weren't segregated.
MS:
They were not.
- 19 -
�JM:
They were not. You could go to the grocery store. And you could go to the dime store, which was on Main
Street in College Park. It was a 10-cent store. I don't know what the name of it was, but we called it the 10cent store, right? And that was where I learned to shoplift.
MS:
The plot thickens.
JM:
Yeah, I used to- I told you I didn't have anything when I moved from the country. And it was now time to
wear lipstick, man. I'm 13, 14 years old. Okay, so I got to get some eyeshadow and some lipstick and some
earrings. So that's where I got my stuff from. And because I was so hip, when I moved from the country
now, you know, it's usually the other way around. If somebody is hip, they come from the north, you know,
but… in this case, I was hip coming from the south, from Fayette County to College Park.
MS:
You just needed the stuff.
JM:
That's right. That's right. And why was I hip? Because I know how to drive straight shift cars. All the girls
were claiming that they knew how to drive but they didn't know how to drive a straight shift. Three on the
column.
MS:
How about that.
JM:
Yeah. And, well, whose car were you driving? I would drive my uncle's car and my cousin's car.
MS:
And you would drive your friends around?
JM:
Yes. I got caught driving without (a) license at the age of 14, by our Black officers. Now in College Park, you
had a segregated Police Department. And so, Booker, Captain Booker was… I don't know if it was Captain
Booker… but Booker was like the number one police officer. Then you had Creflo Dollar. Yep. And you had
Theodore… I don't know what Theodore’s last name was. And then there was another one. Okay. And I was
so confident, and this is after my mother got her car, that I would drive my brother to school… and sisters
to school at Beavers Elementary School and wave at the police officer every morning when they were doing
traffic. You know, cross guard.
MS:
How old were you?
- 20 -
�JM:
13 or 14 years old, right. And it's…
MS:
Bold.
JM:
Very. But eventually I got caught. Yeah. And that's, that's another story all together. These… police officers
believed in tough love. And so, when they finally caught me, which I wouldn't stop on the street for them. I
took them all the way back to our house… apartment. And they put me in the car… and the cruiser, in the
back seat, and took me to all of the fantastic places where Black kids were hanging out to see… so they
could see me riding in the backseat of the car. They took me to Brady Gym, which was where… that was our
hangout. Everybody hung out at Brady gym, unless there was a baseball game. And so there was both that
night and they took me to the baseball field… and had me in the backseat of the car at the baseball field.
MS:
They paraded you.
JM:
Yes. Yeah. And I went to juvenile court. My cousin went to jail for letting me drive his car. That was my
cousin's car in that situation.
MS:
Oh, wow.
JM:
Yeah.
MS:
That's so interesting. I didn't know we were in for this. Shoplifting and driving underage.
JM:
Well, you want the truth, don't you?
MS:
That's true, I want the truth. For sure.
JM:
Yeah. So yeah, September comes along, right? School opens. Ninth grade. I run for office. And I think I won.
I'm pretty sure I did, as representative of the student council for ninth grade, right. You know, a hick just
came in town, but she's so hip. Because she's made her own outfits. And she's got an afro. And yeah.
MS:
- 21 -
�So, you- I mean, it's obvious that as we get toward where they're getting ready to close the school, you've
become a student leader.
JM:
Yes.
MS:
And this… obviously also has… goes back, you know… you've come into this brand new town, and you've
immediately kind of asserted yourself is what I'm gathering.
JM:
Mm hmm. Yes.
MS:
And I know that just speaking with everybody else, there was this sense… there was this overwhelming
sense of community that whether you were at school, whether you were walking the street, whether there
was… it was like a you know, the village raised the kids, right? Was that your experience?
JM:
Yes, yes, very much so. And at this time, I'll insert that there were village mamas, especially who stand out. I
mentioned Creflo Dollar a moment ago. And he, he's passed on, Officer Dollar. However, he has a son who's
very popular in the religious, Christian world who has the same name, Creflo Dollar. But Creflo Dollar’s
mother was… I mean she was the OG, okay? She was… oh, yes Miss Maddie Dollar who worked for the… I
think she worked for the EOA, Equal Opportunity Atlanta. Is that what EOA stood for? And she was an
organizer. And she was… you didn't do anything politically without coming to Maddie dollar. Okay, so she
stands out…. Ursel Miller's mother. Miss Lottie Miller.
MS:
L O T T I E?
JM:
Yes. This woman… and I know I shouldn't say this publicly, but I'm going to say it. For a long time, I thought
maybe Ursel didn't like me because… I took up so much of her mother's time. I mean, I really did. I stuck
onto that woman. She was… the leader for me. Along with Miss Geraldine Lewis, who is still living, I don't
know if you've talked with her. But there's another gem, who is still with us.
MS:
Why Miss Miller so much? Obviously, you looked up to her but…
JM:
Miss Miller had- She was in your face. Fearless. Smoked cigarettes. Yeah, you know? ... I really can't tell you
other than she, um, she was bold, but at the same time, she knew when to pull it back. Yeah. And so yeah.
That's why I love Miss Miller so much.
- 22 -
�MS:
Well, you learned from some top-notch leaders on how to be a leader then.
JM:
I did. I did. Yes, yes.
MS:
Gilbert?4 (looking at a yearbook, Eva Thomas, 1966)
JM:
He wasMS:
Did they spell his name, Gaber? They did they misspell it.
JM:
Oh, wow. They sure did. Yeah. Mr. Gilbert. Another connection. He was our, our school principal, of course.
And he did his best to contain me. But it was really difficult. But what made it easier for him was that he
was my great- my- my great Aunt's neighbor.
MS:
Okay.
JM:
And he, he knew how to pull that… that card.
MS:
Sure. So, you get- I mean, am I- am I stretching to say you may have gotten under the skin of some teachers
and administrators in your day?
JM:
EspeciallyMS:
Especially Gilbert?
JM:
Yes.
MS:
Yeah.
4
William Gilbert, Principal at Eva Thomas High School.
- 23 -
�JM:
Yes.
MS:
Was this kind of breaking the rules kind of stuff or just being vocal? OrJM:
I would say primarily vocal. And then breaking the rules too, because I did some pretty adolescent kind of
stuff like… bring alcohol to school, you know? Bullied a little bit. Fight a little bit. Yeah. But at the same time,
I was always the one who was the chosen one by the student body to represent our sentiments about
certain things. And even if I wasn't chosen, I would go.
MS:
You were fearless. I think probably it sounds like that. They could rally behind you because you were kind
of fearless.
JM:
Yeah.
MS:
Not kind of…
JM:
Yeah. Yeah. I got put off the basketball team.
MS:
Did you?
JM:
Yeah. For being an instigator. And it was the first time I’d even heard that name and that word: instigate.
MS:
That would come up later too, that word.
JM:
Yeah.
MS:
It would be used… thrown around.
JM:
Yeah.
- 24 -
�MS:
So, okay. Eva Thomas (High) School. What did you think of the school… your first day there? I mean, it's,
this is a brand-new facility.
JM:
Right. It wasMS:
I've seen pictures. We're talking state of the art.
JM:
Yes, it was. Yes. And it was brand new because we weren't allowed to go to the other schools. Sure, okay…
we weren't allowed to go to… College Park High School. Nor Russell. Yeah.
MS:
When you see that after Brown vs. Board, you see money invested in Black schools to try to maintain Plessy
vs. Ferguson.
JM:
Yeah, yeah.
MS:
Separate but equal.
JM:
Yes, there you go.
MS:
Let's spend money and throw money at the issue.
JM:
That's right. That's right. Yeah. And it was okay with us and that… Eva Thomas was there when I got there.
Let me say that. And excellence was there. We had outstanding scholars. Women who went on to Spelman
College, which I ended up going to Spelman as well. Morris Brown, all the HBCUs were filled by these
students. An outstanding band led by Mr. James Patterson, who is still I believe… he may be still over the
jazz band of Clark Atlanta University.
MS:
Dudleys told me about it.
JM:
- 25 -
�Okay, very good… We used to have a football team, but because we didn't have enough students, I believe
that's why we ended up not continuing with the football program because, you know, it takes a lot of a lot
of…
MS:
…resources, for sure.
JM:
That's, right, for football. But basketball, we were a powerhouse.
MS:
Yeah, we know that.
JM:
We got state championship, you know, and regionals for the women. And um, like I said…
MS:
You got kicked off the basketball team.
JM:
Yeah. But she let me come back on. Yeah.
MS:
So, was that the only extracurricular that you were into? Or was there other…
JM:
There was nothing else, and band. Yeah. Band and… and basketball. Basketball was everything. Because we
would leave school, go home and get a bite to eat and go to Brady Gym and play until the gym closed… at
night. Pick up ball.
MS:
This is… okay… Not because Eva Thomas didn’t have a gym.
JM:
Yes.
MS:
But this is where you all went after school.
JM:
That's right. That was our hangout.
MS:
- 26 -
�How far away was that from your… was it in the neighborhood?
JM:
Yeah, yeah. Walking distance. Yeah. I mean, you… would leave Yale and walk over to… I don't know the
name of the street now. But that's where Brady was, over there.
MS:
I'm assuming it's not there anymore.
JM:
Brady is!
MS:
Oh, is it?
JM:
Yes, sir. And you have to go there. Yeah.
MS:
Do you remember how many students you graduated with?
JM:
I didn't graduate fromMS:
You didn't graduate from Eva Thomas?
JM:
No, I didn't.
MS:
Tell us about that.
JM:
My class was actually Ursel's class… was the last class to graduate from Eva Thomas.
MS:
That would have been ‘69?
JM:
Yeah. That was- Was it? ‘70? I graduated in ‘71. From Turner high.
MS:
- 27 -
�Yes. It would have been ‘70 because they kept the school open for that year after the sit-ins, right?
JM:
A year as a high school and then it became an eighth-grade school.
MS:
Right? Yes. And then it became Beavers-Thomas.
JM:
That's Right.
MS:
And for those of you who are researching, this site is now College Park Elementary.
JM:
That's correct.
MS:
So now I want to talk about how they- the closing of the school…
JM:
Yeah, look at that.
MS:
We okay on time?
JM:
Yeah.
MS:
Okay. So, when did you find out they were closing it?
JM:
I believe it may have been at the end of sixty… the end of the school year for ’69, maybe?
MS:
Yeah. Well, and so it would have been that summer after the term.
JM:
Yes. Yes… that we actually had the demonstrations.
MS:
Yeah.
- 28 -
�JM:
Okay. And please correct me with the records, because a lot of this, again, is stuff that I have not thought a
lot about lately, because I've wanted to get away from the thoughts of the things that were painful.
MS:
Well, thank you for sharing. I mean, I know that it's difficult.
JM:
Yeah, yeah. It was very painful. That school did represent to me, like you said earlier, or I said earlier,
freedom. It represented excellence. Yeah.
MS:
Yeah.
JM:
Yeah.
MS:
Did the name- I mean, were you aware of the- of what was going on with regards to why the school was
closing? The name Paul West,5 the name Fletcher Thompson.6 This thing is being played out in newspapers
and even on the news reels. I know you've seen the old WSB film clips. Not watched them?
JM:
No, I would love to see them. But maybe it's something that I can come to the Teaching Museum7 to see at
some point.
MS:
Well, I mean, you know… they're available online.
JM:
Oh, good.
MS:
I'll send you a link.
JM:
Oh, thank you, Mike. That would be great. My children don't know this.
MS:
Paul D. West, Superintendent of Fulton County Schools, 1947-1971.
Fletcher Thompson, US House of Representatives, Georgia, 5th District, 1967-1973.
7 Fulton County Schools Teaching Museum South, Hapeville, Ga.
5
6
- 29 -
�They don't know this story? …So, in talking with… as I'm reading some of the old Atlanta Constitution
articles that are reporting as this sit-in is happening, your name comes up several times. And I believe in
another conversation I had with another person who was in high school with you. You were part of a
leadership group that… that also included Morris Dillard, NAACP. Who else, that you can remember?
JM:
Well, of course, Lonnie King was the president of the NAACP at the time,
MS:
NEACP? NAACP.
JM:
Yes. National Association of Advancement of Colored People. Lonnie and Morris were the leaders of the
Atlanta University student movement. And they were responsible for the opening of Atlanta in terms of
desegregation. They were the ones who were sitting at the counters and getting locked upMS:
Yeah.
JM:
Over and over again. So, they were the leaders of the NAACP, at the time that we had our demonstrations.
So, they had all of this hands-on experience that helped us in having a successful demonstration. And, or…
they helped us without organizing, okay, which were just like in the old Civil Rights days of… where you…
you had mass meetings in churches. And so, Friendship Baptist Church, which was on Harvard Avenue, was
our gathering place to… galvanize the community. Okay, so I would say that the NAACP, which also had (a)
legal team, headed by Howard Moore. Howard Moore was our representation in court. Howard Moore was
also Angela Davis's attorney.
MS:
Okay.
JM:
Okay?
MS:
Yeah.
JM:
So, this was like, huge, major. Even the Black Panther Party came down, sent representatives to protect us
when we took over the school and stayed inside the school. Yeah. I mentioned our local leaders. Miss Dollar,
especially, Lottie Miller and Geraldine Lewis.
MS:
- 30 -
�How would they support you?
JM:
They were there. They were there. We had a march from College Park to downtown where the Fulton
County Board of Education's Office was at that time. I think that was Paul West's office that we went to
down there.
MS:
Yeah, there's um- The newspapers chronicle that. And I think that is… where the whole demonstration kind
of started was… was a march with a petition?
JM:
I think so.
MS:
Don't close our school.
JM:
Yeah. I think so, again, in terms of the details of it all…
MS:
Yeah. Well… that's fine. It's not so much as verifying dates to… I think me or anybody, who wants to hear
your voice, but your experience is what's important to them. And your memories will… you know, they'll
kind of put it in that context. So, you have this March and then obviously, they're going to continue with the
plan to shut down the school.
JM:
Yes. And let's not fail to mention that we had Lester Maddox as the governor.
MS:
Sure. Yeah. To kind of…
JM:
Who's… who sent in the forces to bring us out of school.
MS:
At what point did you all decide, you know, we need to take over our school and sit-in. Was this after that
march or…
JM:
Yeah.
MS:
- 31 -
�Do you remember? Okay.
JM:
I think- I'm pretty sure it was after.
MS:
And so, I would imagine you as a leader, were one of the first ones on the scene in there. And then there is,
in one of these newsreel clips, it shows a bunch of students on bleachers in a gymnasium. And I think it's
Sheriff Leroy Stynchcombe…
JM:
Yes.
MS:
…comes in with a court order, right?
JM:
That's right.
MS:
Do you remember what happened next?
JM:
That may have been when we took over the school.
MS:
Yeah. Okay.
JM:
Yeah. And that was when the sheriffs came in and pulled… and lifted us out. And yeah, and we did the…
what do you call it when you? Well, of course, it's nonviolent, but there's a… there's a name for it, but you
just lay there. And they have to carry you. And we had several older women with us who were overweight.
And it was just beautiful watching them.
MS:
Trying to get them out.
JM:
And then, what after… after they got all of us out. They thought they had us all out?
MS:
No.
- 32 -
�JM:
They didn't. We opened it back up. Then we went back in again.
MS:
That's what I remember from reading the papers. And so, I actually printed out this timeline, so I could talk
to you about it. I highlighted a few points, but it's like… we've already blown through it. You know, there
is… it looks like one point…
JM:
And by the way, people came from all over the country to support us.
MS:
Did they?
JM:
Yes. I'm going to share something with you now (I) probably never shared with anybody, especially
publicly. But they were… my first ever friendly encounter with any white person was during that time. And
there was a young white girl who came in as an ally to support us. I can't remember her name, but she was
friendly. And she offered me a drink that she had drank out of. And I wouldn't drink it.
MS:
Wow. Isn't that interesting?
JM:
Yeah. Because I didn't I, I didn't drink behind people.
MS:
People in general or was it because she was white?
JM:
It was probably because she was white, because I drink my… my sister… I used to steal her drink all the
time. [laughs]
MS:
Course. Of course.
JM:
But she… yeah, as a rule, though, we didn't drink behind people that mean… there was just certain things
that we were…
MS:
Well, she was a stranger.
- 33 -
�JM:
Yeah, but I remember, like remembering, is this going to be rude? Is this going to hurt her feelings? But I
still couldn't do it. But she was very nice.
MS:
So, you had people from… obviously, there were people from Atlanta and all over that came out just to
show support?
JM:
Yes.
MS:
And how did they do that? They stood there and clapped and cheer, or how do you…
JM:
No, they were in the… some were in the march and bringing food and… yeah.
MS:
And I think that after your… after they put the majority of students out, they didn't try to remove you from
the school property, right? It was from inside the building, is that correct?
JM:
Right. Yeah.
MS:
And then there was one account where you actually… there was a picnic or something is that… there was
one newspaper article that said Morris Dillard had put on a picnic. And so that doesn't ring a bell with you.
That might have been…
JM:
No. And you know, Morris just passed. Right?
MS:
Yeah, I should mention that. And I did in my interview with Ursel Brown that we are speaking within weeks
of losing Morris Dillard, who was instrumental in this whole event that we're talking about.
JM:
Yes, very much so.
MS:
And I am happy that I got to meet him before.
JM:
- 34 -
�Yes.
MS:
So, I'll say that.
JM:
Yeah.
MS:
Now I'm going toJM:
Yeah.
MS:
Okay. So um, it looks like Julian Bond…
JM:
Yes. I'm telling you… anybody.
MS:
Horace Tate?
JM:
…anybody who had some influence. And this was there… an opportunity for them to show up and show
some support. Because it was, I mean, so blatant that the school was being closed to desegregate the
surrounding white schools so that they could get those federal dollars.
MS:
Exactly. Yeah, and most of these white schools are overcrowded, right?
JM:
I had no idea what was going on up in there because they hadn't… they had not welcomed us prior to the
knowledge that they're federal dollars were going to be cut off.
MS:
Sure. So, you had knowledge of that as a young person?
JM:
I wish I could tell you, yes, but the answer is no.
MS:
They were taking ‘my’ school basically.
- 35 -
�JM:
That's right.
MS:
How long…
JM:
I didn't… honestly, I didn't know the meaning of desegregation, the word desegregation.
MS:
Wow.
JM:
Yeah.
MS:
Do you remember how long this kind of event took place, the sit in the- before you found out, "Okay, we're
going to get… to keep our school"?
JM:
I don't… it just seems like it was just for the summer. Yeah.
MS:
Yeah. I don't know this specifically.
JM:
Because we got word… Yeah, because we got word that they were going to reopen our school under
conditions. And of course, the condition was that, you know, it would be open for one year as a high school
and then the eighth-grade schools.
MS:
And so, you were you, you were transferred to College Park? Headland?
JM:
College Park.
MS:
And that's where you ended up getting your…
JM:
No.
MS:
- 36 -
�…high school diploma? No.
JM:
No. Because, um I don't know if you know this, but they decided that in… by closing down, Eva Thomas, as a
high school, that they would divvy up the leadership. Uh, the principals would be sent to different places to
be assistants. And, Mr. Gilbert, I don't… I think he retired out of that. I'm not sure but I think he did. But
there was another principal, assistant principal, and I don't think he came from Eva Thomas, but he came
from maybe another school; maybe South Fulton or somewhere, who ended up being one of the assistant
principals at College Park High School. Because I had gotten so much media attention over that summer.
Uh, Mr. D... can't remember the principal's name of College Park. D… Started with… There was a D
something.
MS:
Oh… Bostardi.
JM:
Bostardi!
MS:
Yes.
JM:
That was it not D, but B. Bostardi, Bostardi. I guess he made it clear that he wasn't having it out of me. That,
you know, he had several assistant principals and I wasn’t one of them. Because I immediately started
coming in on him about the continuous segregation. You got two Black queens, I mean, two queens for the
school, the Black Queen and a white queen. For homecoming. You can use our… men, our boys for the
football team. But where are the Black majorettes and the Black cheerleaders? Oh, we can be flagbearers,
but we can't be up front. Um, you can use us in the band. But no, majorettes. No Black majorettes.
MS:
So really? Yeah.
JM:
So. So I was in his ass. Oh! Excuse me. I was in his stuff. [laughs] Immediately. And on top of that, I suffer
from hay fever. And the first few days I'm in class… by sitting behind a white girl who's... Y'all can't see that
on camera, but she's throwing her hair.
MS:
Yes, I'm sorry yes… she’s throwing her hair around.
JM:
And dust is… I'm allergic to pollen. So, I'm like tears running down my face. And I'm sneezing and it was just
it. I quit high school.
- 37 -
�MS:
Oh, I see.
JM:
I quit high school in my senior year.
MS:
I could see you having a target on your back.
JM:
Yeah, I did. And there was another woman who, I wish I could remember her name. She was… she worked
at E(O)A as well, I think she was of Asian descent. But I started dabbling around with these different
philosophies, including communism. And so, I had a button that had like Mao Zedong on it and, you know,
just fooling around. And she, she saw it on me once. And this was early on before the demonstrations, I
think even… and she told me, you know, you don't need to advertise who you are, what you think. And I
took her advice for a while, but when I went up to College- College Park, College Park High School, I did not.
I had, uh, the Red Book sitting on my desk.
MS:
No kidding.
JM:
My high school desk. And so, yes, in terms of target, yes.
MS:
Yeah, that was a touch point back then, too.
JM:
Yeah, that's right. That's right.
MS:
Because we all know that communism narrative in the Civil Rights Movement and, yeah, for sure.
JM:
Yeah. That's right. And it- I wasn't so sure that I wasn't on… J. Edgar Hoover's, uh…
MS:
Watch list?
JM:
Yeah… at that time, as well.
- 38 -
�MS:
(Cellphone rings) If you have to take a call, then feel free.
JM:
No, that was just my prayer… prayer call.
MS:
Gotcha.
JM:
Yeah.
MS:
Okay.
JM:
And so, um, anyway, um, the leaders of the NAACP. Morris had moved on. It was another leader at that time.
His name was Al McClure. Lonnie was becoming… he was running for Fifth District Congressman, Lonnie
King. So, I'm still involved in… now I'm involved in campaigns. Even Andy Young. Actually, that's when…
Andrew Young became a Fifth District Congressman, during that election period. You've mentioned
Fletcher Thompson a few minutes ago. He was… yeah, the Republican that… was he the Congressman or a
Senator?
MS:
He was Congressman.
JM:
Yeah. So that's who we were running against. You know, trying to get him up out of there.
MS:
Yeah.
JM:
And, um, so, back to me, though… we were working on getting me early admission into Spelman. But school
had already started… wasn't going to happen. So, I was on my own. And my mother worked for the Regency
as a salad maker. And so, my aunt, who was the neighbor to Mr. Gilbert, lived in Atlanta. And she said I
could use her address, come stay with her and seek the school in her district. So that ended up being Turner
High School.
MS:
Henry Turner High School.
JM:
- 39 -
�Yes. I went to… and spoke to I think his name was Mr. Washington who was the principal.
MS:
I wonder if there was a Mr. Turner who was at Washington.
JM:
Right. And, and so he… he kind of felt like, you know, okay. You really live there? But anyway, he said, "Can
you play basketball?" I said, “Yes, sir. I play, I play basketball.” So, he said "Okay." Yeah. And so, uh, I ended
up…
MS:
So, you are a graduate of Turner now?
JM:
Yeah.
MS:
Okay. And then you went to Spelman.
JM:
Yes.
MS:
And that's part of, kind of wrapping this thing up, is… and I'll talk all day if you want but be respectful your
time... how all that at Eva Thomas. It sounds like you took that…. you took that with you. You've already
mentioned that you… you became active in politics.
JM:
Even though that defeat with Lonnie. Lonnie did not… in the primaries. He did not make the general
election. Andy, Andrew Young did.
MS:
He did.
JM:
Yeah. And so… Excuse me, when Lonnie was defeated. That was my first time experiencing depression that
I knew… knew that it was depression as a young person. I mean, I really, really… that was the lowest point
of my life as a young person, as a teenager, when he lost. But I went on over to Andy's camp and worked in
phone banks and stuff like that for him… and so he did win.
MS:
Did you do that? Did you stay active in politics well into your 20s and into your adult life?
- 40 -
�JM:
Uh, you know, basically, I guess you would say I did for a short period of time when I became a parent. At
the age of 23, my fierceness was redirected into parenting.
MS:
Parenting.
JM:
Yeah, parenting locally, parenting my children versus the community, right? And… and so that fierceness
did involve activism, community activism, but I don't like to call it politics per se. For instance, I've… I've
climbed billboards, and painted over billboards to vocalize that we wouldn't have strip clubs advertising,
you know, that you can get a $5 table dance in my neighborhood. I've threatened to paint a billboard for
Coors, who had a billboard in my neighborhood that was clearly targeting their marketing to young people.
All I had to do is threaten them, though they brought it down.
MS:
Did they?
JM:
Yeah. And yeah, so things like that being the PTA president. You know, those are the kind of things that I
put my energy into as a young mother. Yeah. And making sure that my children were looking at PBS. And
eating proper foods.
MS:
There you go.
JM:
Yeah.
MS:
That's full time anyway.
JM:
That's right.
MS:
Is there… I mean, is there anything, you know… I'm not sure what the question, what question to ask
because your experiences go well beyond Eva Thomas. I expected to talk to somebody who became a leader
during that. But your leadership has transcended that. I mean, it started before that, and it has gone on
beyond the Eva Thomas events. What would you tell somebody… I mean, now that you're looking back…
and you said, you haven't spent a whole time looking back at this… As you look back now, how do you think
what happened back in the 1960s to you as a teenager… how has it affected or put an impression on your
life, as you look back now?
- 41 -
�JM:
I would say, establish community wherever you are. And if you have someone in your neighborhood who
knows what community looks like, from the past, sit at their heels, at their feet. And if you have someone
who has a vision for what community, the beloved community, what the beloved community is… can be…
please sit with them. That might be a child. Yeah, yeah.
MS:
Great. Well, thank you very much.
JM:
Thank you.
- 42 -
�
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Description
An account of the resource
Oral Histories collected from alumni, students, teachers and staff of the Fulton County School System, 1980s-present.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Fulton County Schools Archives, Hapeville, Ga
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Mike Santrock
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jessica (Allen) Muhammad
Location
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Fulton County Schools Archives, Teaching Museum South, Hapeville, Georgia
Duration
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1:17:46
Dublin Core
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Title
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Oral History (transcript), Jessica Muhammad, November 17, 2021
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--Fulton County
College Park
Eva Thomas High School
desegregation
integration
Description
An account of the resource
Jessica Muhammad (formerly Jessica Allen) was born in Fayette County, Georgia in the 1950s. She attended elementary school in both Fayette County and for a time in the city of Atlanta. After moving to College Park, she attended Eva Thomas High School, College Park High School, and eventually, Henry M. Turner High School (City of Atlanta). Muhammad was a student leader in the sit-ins and protests surrounding Eva Thomas High in 1969 and carried her activism into her adulthood, when she worked on both Lonnie King’s and Andrew Young’s campaigns to win the US congressional seat from Georgia’s Fifth District.
A video recording of this oral history will be made available soon.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Fulton County Schools Archives
Mike Santrock
Jessica Muhammad
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Fulton County Schools Archives, Hapeville, Ga
Date
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2021
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a><br />Direct questions regarding use to archives@fultonschools.org
Format
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Document-transcript, 42 pages
Video recording, 1:17:46
Identifier
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2021.ohfc.3
College Park
Eva Thomas High School
Fletcher Thompson
Geraldine Lewis
Lottie Miller
Paul D West
segregation
William Gilbert
-
https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/40118/archive/files/aeda0e943b6dd1a95e12ad2d7fbd0ce5.pdf?Expires=1712793600&Signature=vf3Gp7Yr1rMk78tmUEqNR4%7E9eWxXuGPdwqKA%7EejRabVJfyDxFiL5FcrdcxyxJ2pvCr7cYH5HNc-nqSbOyHRBVpRTm9IKE4s9hifHexqplBGYPKdSe5ZNIugPyYub923TtOdWX0zGXz6-73UyFxwICeJem2Wmo32s3Zlct0KiheJZblr6gjnE-vfXjKqYH%7EzogsCFWTrAiiRhFFErN7-M8cucyqby1H9UlQAJA82E0J9jLtgXEDhrUxf5vARCF2aowMOTSntFdFDLonpLUU7G2kZQNqKUKRJnWkpzVL-jvk93iaAATP4k8UHavqYyR28pmvaf0XUnddaGBPq8r3jtkA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM
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PDF Text
Text
Emma & Lawyer Dudley
November 15, 2021, 2 pm
Fulton County Schools Archives, Teaching Museum South, Hapeville, Georgia
Emma Dudley is a native of College Park who taught Mathematics at Eva Thomas High School, where she also
served as the head of her curriculum department. Prior to her position there, she worked as a teacher in
Emanuel County, Georgia. Emma Dudley attended South Fulton High School (Class of 1950) and Clark College.
Lawyer Dudley taught Industrial Arts at Eva Thomas High School, beginning in 1965. He is a native of Eufaula,
Alabama. Lawyer Dudley attended Tuskegee College (now Tuskegee Institute) and served in the U.S. Army
during the Korean War. He was among the first teachers in Fulton County to integrate.
The two met while teaching at Eva Thomas High School and were later married.
Michael Santrock (MS):
I'm Mike Santrock. I'm with the Fulton County Schools Archives. I'm here with Emma and Lawyer Dudley,
former teachers at Eva Thomas High School. It is November 15, 2021. And we are talking from the archive
right now. And we're actually going, looking through some of the Eva Thomas collection we have here. So,
you've been able to look through the yearbook a little bit.
Emma Dudley (ED):
Yeah.
MS:
I'm assuming you found yourself in there?
ED:
I found me in there.
MS:
So, what did you all teach? Emma, what did you teach?
ED:
Mathematics.
MS:
You taught math?
ED:
Yeah, I was the head of the mathematics department.
MS:
Okay. How many teachers were there in the math?
-1-
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
�ED:
At that time was probably three of four. And then when Mr. Dudley came, Mr. Gilbert thought he was going
to put Mr. Dudley in the math department. And I didn't, we didn't know each other. We just met. And I said
"No, Mr. Dudley has got to stay in his woodshop." [laughs] He did mechanical drawings and woodshop.
MS:
So, you were teaching woodshop?
Lawyer Dudley (LD):
Yes.
ED:
And doing mechanical drawings. Yeah.
MS:
Did you all, did you all teach somewhere else beforehand?
ED:
Yeah, I had, when I was in the first graduating class from East Point High School. Before my class, the kids
went from... College Park Elementary School to Washington High School.1
MS:
They went to Washington in Atlanta.
ED:
...because it, Fulton County didn't have a high school for, you know, so I graduated when... I graduated from
East Point High School in the first graduating class they had for Blacks. And so, then I graduated from Clark
College in '54. And went to Emanuel County, Swainsboro, Georgia, and stayed 10 good years. I kind of like
made it home, became a part of what was going on down there and I really enjoyed it. And then when Mr.
Gilbert contacted me to say, he wanted me to come to Eva Thomas, they were opening a school, a high
school in College Park for Black kids, and he wanted his former students... he wanted the people he knew.
MS:
So, you had, he was a former teacher of yours then?
ED:
Yeah. And he was at East Point High as my social studies teacher. And that was my worst class. I didn't, I
like everything better than that...
MS:
You didn't like social studies...
1
Booker T. Washington High School, Atlanta Public School District.
-2-
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
�ED:
I didn't like social studies. But uh, so then he became principal and when he became principal, he had all of
us to come. Most, most of the teachers there were his former students.
MS:
Was that your case too, Lawyer?
LD:
No, I taught in Lumpkin, Georgia, in Richmond, Georgia, before coming to Atlanta.
MS:
And you taught shop there too?
LD:
Yes. I did.
MS:
Yeah. Well, so what I wanted to kind of start with, let me make sure that this is recording our audio... What I
wanted to make sure what I started with was kind of maybe talk about your all's background, your
childhood a little bit, each of you and you know... Well first let's, let's talk about your, when you were young,
tell me about your family, Emma.
ED:
Okay. You know, they say that home is where the heart is. And College Park will always have a special place
in my heart. My address was 720 West John Wesley Avenue, but I grew up in the one square mile... you hear
them talking about that one square mile in College Park? That was the area that I grew up in. And that... is
when you talk about that one square mile, if you stand on the corner of Virginia Avenue and College
Avenue, you go south to Yale, and then you go around and make a... it makes a complete square. Well, that
was College Park. But today it is a new College Park and you know that, right?
MS:
Right.
ED:
I lived on one side, three rooms of what they call a [inaudible] six-room house. Now in the 720 West John
Wesley, I lived with my mom, my dad, and seven siblings: five sisters and two brothers, until my daddy left
us when we were very young, and then there was mother and eight kids.
MS:
Where were you... In the kids? Were you one of the oldest or the youngest?
ED:
-3-
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
�I was, I was fourth. I was... I was the fourth of eight. The house we lived in was on a dirt road. So, you know
what happened when it rained: it was a great mud. And... had no running water, no electricity, no... gas, or
anything. But we were happy. And I asked my sister the other night, I said, "With all of us in the house,
where did we sleep?" She said, "I guess in the bed." [laughs]
MS:
Probably, a lot of you all slept in the same bed...
ED:
Right. Now that's where we ended up at night. Now during the day, we were everywhere in everybody's
house. We went from house to house. And I lived on John Wesley and the Davis's, Emily Davis and her
family, lived on Columbia. And Emily Davis's daddy was known as, you know, like the master and he just
knew everything. He was smart man. So, we had homework, I would go to Emily Davis's house. And we
would sit like in a circle and Mr. Davis would be there. And he would help us with our homework. Okay, so
their house was like home, you know. And I remember all the different places where we played, how we
ran in from one house to the other. And I think the community churches was like a key to what was
happening with all of us. We had, we were different denominations, but we combined everything. One
church... we were part of all of it. In other words, I was like a member of the Friendship. And a good
example is when on Easter Sundays, when we had Easter, when we had the Easter programs, we would
start at Friendship like at three and everybody would go. And then we would go from Friendship to Laster
Chapel. That was my church. At four, then we would all go up the street to Mount Zion and... and Charles2
was at my church. Charles's family was at my church. And we would go to Mount Zion like the next hour,
and then go down the street to Shiloh. And we went in groves and, and sometimes, like if a child had a
speech at Friendship, when they got Laster Chapel they'd say, "I want to speak again." And that was
allowed. So that it was just like family. That's what it was, like...
MS:
Is Friendship still there?
ED:
No. All of that... that [inaudible] project got all of those churches.
MS:
Even Mount Zion too?
ED:
Even, even Mount Zion. Mount Zion is down the road on Rivertown...
LD:
Rivertown...
ED:
2
Charles Dill, alum of Eva Thomas High School, Class of 1970
-4-
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
�Riverdale...
LD:
Riverdale.
ED:
That was a Ursel's3 church, wasn't it?
LD:
Yes.
ED:
She's at a [inaudible], okay? We'd play it all over the place. And like I said, we went from house to house.
Now, at my church, they allowed me to teach Sunday school as a teenager. And I felt really good about that.
Because I was always the person who wanted to do the good stuff, you know. And I was Sunday School
teacher as a teenager. I was a youth counselor. And I served on the home department committee with Mr.
Homer C. Arnold and others. And this committee, we would meet at the church like a Wednesday evening.
We would leave and decide what we were going to do and where we're going. And we would walk around
into the neighborhoods. Most of it was like the sick and shut ins. And I remember I was, I was a teenager,
and I would go with Mr. Homer C. and I would read the scriptures and he would do the prayer and we take
a little donation. And I think when I started doing that, I kind of like, fell in love with a lot of the elder
people there. So then when I didn't have anything else to do, I would walk up to like Miss Beavers. You
heard him talking about the Beavers? The Mama Beavers, I used to go and just sit on the porch with her.
And I was thinking about this other night. I would always scratch her head. She had dandruff and I would
scratch it. And she used to love for me to do that. And then there was Miss McDowell. Remember Sophie
McDowell's mama? I would go by there to see them. They were... Miss Beavers was at the Mount Zion
Church. McDowell was at our church. And I would just go back to see the old folk, and just whatever they
needed me to do that's what I would do, and I enjoyed doing that.
MS:
So, for those of you who are listening, this recording and don't know, Beavers... there was an elementary
school, was part of the Fulton County System that was named after Jefferson Franklin Beavers, who was a
member of College Park community, and very instrumental in bringing education for Black students.
ED:
Yeah, that was, it was first... it was College Park Elementary. Because that's where I went to elementary
school. Then they changed the name to JF Beavers... Yes.
MS:
Am I right? to JF Beavers...
ED:
3
Ursel Brown, alum of Eva Thomas High School, Class of 1970
-5-
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
�Yeah, that was the, the elementary school for Blacks in College Park.
MS:
So, you mentioned that you were a Sunday school teacher. Did... is that kind of what made you feel like you
wanted to be a teacher one day and make that your profession?
ED:
I'm thinking that was part of it. I'm thinking that was part of... one thing it did when I was at college. It made
me want to become a missionary. And all of these times I was planning to become a missionary worker and
go to India and do all these good things. And, and then when I... I ended up going to Clark College... The
reason I went to Clark College... Mr. Frank McClarin, you heard his name?
MS:
Yes.
ED:
…who was my principal when I was in high school, he had talked me into accepting a scholarship at Morris
Brown College because that was his school. And he wanted some of his good students, of course, to go to his
school. And so, when I went to summer camp... each summer, as a youth, I went to the youth summer camp.
So, I went to summer camp. And there was this person that I remember, wish I could remember his name.
But he said, "How many of you graduated from high school this year?" And I raised my hand. "Where are
you going to school?" And everybody said, and I said, "Morris Brown." And he said, "Not Clark?" And I said,
"Well, I don't have any money. And Morris Brown is going to give me a full scholarship." And he said, "We
are going to get you a full scholarship. And only thing you're going to have to do is to keep a B average." Of
course, I can do that. And that's how I ended up at Clark, because they wanted me to stay in the Methodist
college since I was United Methodist... at that time was Methodist Episcopal. It wasn't United Methodist. All
this has changed since my day, you know.
MS:
So, when you were growing up, your favorite subject was math then too, or you were just better at it?
ED:
Let me tell you why my favorite is math. When I went to high school, I was the fourth Schell to go... my, my
sister Louise, Helen Lyerly had gone before me. And when I got to the ninth grade… they said first Mr.
Hightower, he was the math teacher. I'd heard about him. And the first quiz I took, I think I missed one or
two problems. And he came in the classroom and said, "Miss Schell. What's wrong with you? The Schells
don't do this." And I was embarrassed. So, I had to prove to everybody that I could do better in math than
everybody else. Isn't that strange?
MS:
No. [laughs]
ED:
-6-
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
�[laughs] Isn't that strange? Not, not that I'm saying what I'm saying, it sounds like maybe they went from
ninth grade. That was, that was the end of Fulton County at that time, ninth grade, because after that they
went to Washington High School. As I said, I was the first in the first graduating class. That was in 1950.
Okay? I remember all of the little businesses over in College Park and... and the little shops, they had a
barber shop, beauty shops, almost on every corner... where the church was almost... it was full of churches.
Churches were like on every corner, but all the other businesses were all together and people were part of
all of it... And I was fortunate enough to be invited to go on the tour that I think your neighbor [inaudible]
Jones, who is the economic development director... they did a tour.
MS:
Do you remember when that was?
ED:
So, it was May 22 2021. And I, and I went on that tour with him to show us what the new College Park was
going to be like, you know. And now at that time, Charles Price… and the reason I thought about that,
because that was the last business they were talking about. You probably heard somebody say that before.
It was the barber shop that Charles Price had. He was there and his daddy was there before him. It was the
College Park barber shop. And he was on that tour and it was interesting because Ms. Wilma Nichols who,
who is my good friend... you probably heard her name before... she stayed in the house between Eva
Thomas and JF Beavers. And I was talking to her the other night and I say, and I don't remember when it
was but the last big Black History... we were invited to be on the Black History committee. Can't remember
the ladies name, but anyway we had a function at the convention center. And at that time, remember, they
had the educators and all the teachers come back. Wilma and I were... Dowdell, you heard Charles Dowdell,
well he invited us to go to that committee meeting before they had that particular function. And when we
got there, they were saying we are trying to do some research and stuff. We are trying to find out
something about Miss Eva Thomas and JF Beavers and Wilma said "I stayed, I grew up in the house
between theirs." So, you don't have to look anymore. Those are the kind of things that you know, becomes
part of you.
MS:
Sure. Sure... Lawyer. Tell us where you grew up and about your family if you would real quick.
LD:
Oh, yes. I was born in Eufaula. Alabama, below Columbus, Georgia, which you may be familiar with.
MS:
I’m familiar. A little bit.
LD:
There were three kids in my family. One girl and two boys... which I am a twin. Okay. Ah, was educated in
Eufaula at Van Buren High School, which we attended. My father, he worked in the textile mill for 32 years
without taking a day off.
-7-
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
�MS:
You don't see that anymore, do you?
LD:
No more. For 32 years, my mother was a housewife, she did not work. All dad wanted for her to do was to
take care of his kids... Okay. After we finished high school, we three, he sent us to college, Tuskegee Institute
at that time, which is now known as Tuskegee University. Before going to Tuskegee, he said that "I want all
of my kids to finish college..." which he only went to the third grade. Okay. After that, we went to Tuskegee,
the three of us. Dad was only making 50 cents a day...
MS:
a day...
LD:
...which I cannot understand, how he made it through. But he did. And his very first word to his kids was,
"Save all you can, whatever you can, because you're going to see some rainy days," which I have seen.
MS:
I was going to say, I bet he was right.
LD:
Yes, he was correct and everything.
ED:
But you know, the thing, the key thing about College Park was everybody knew everybody. You felt safe.
And you didn't have to make no effort to be a part of stuff. You know, you just... and just like I said about the
shortcuts and stuff. We used to go through the [inaudible] and, you know, cross the field and that kind of
thing. And, and let me say a little bit about my muddy street... when I got to college... no, no, when I was in..
when we had to go to high school. We didn't have... we had to go to East Point but there was no
transportation provided. So, Mary Davis, you probably heard that name, they had a bus and if you get the
money, you can ride the bus. And every once in a while, we may have it. My mama might have had the
money, but most of the time, a lot of the times, we would walk from the house to the bus station and ride
the bus and then walk to the school. Now a lot of days we had to walk from home to East Point...
MS:
from College Park to East Point...
ED:
...from College Park to East Point to school. And when I got... and the interesting thing was, they would
always put me on these little committees and stuff. They made me a school patrol. And then I got a job. My
mama used to do a lot of work for the white folk across the railroad track. And we would go with her and so
one of the ladies asked if I wanted to work at the schools. And I said, "I sure do. I need to make some
money." And I would get off the bus. At that time, I could have bus fare, see. And I would get off the bus and
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�run across the railroad track and, and that's that... those are the kinds of things that we did, but didn't think
anything about it, because that's the way it's supposed to be, you know. That's how you were doing it. But...
MS:
This was when you were in high school?
ED:
This was when I was in high school. This was, this was when I was in high school. But when it would rain...
and I was in college and had to walk from that muddy downhill to the bus stop, I would put my shoes, my
good shoes, in a bag and put some old shoes and stuff and walk through it... and go through the back door of
one of the buildings on the college campus. I put my muddy shoes in the bag and go in there and look like
I've come from downtown. [laughs] But you know, I did it. Yeah. I showed up and I got it done... I think I just
think that... I guess that I should say its sad today to think about all the good things that were then; because
when I come to College Park now, I feel like a visitor. You know, it just feels like somebody just came and
took the stuff away from you.
MS:
It's changed?
ED:
You know, it's changed. Its changed and I'm not sure that it... it shouldn't be what it is. I'm not sure about
that. But I do think that some way, somehow you kind of like need to know some things and be a part of
this. And I listed some stuff, I was talking to somebody... well, anyway, this might not be the place to even
talk about it. But there was a lot of things that happened in College Park that I don't want people to ever
forget. And you probably weren’t old enough to know about the time, I think it might have been in the '80s
with murdered missing children with this Wayne Williams case?
MS:
So, I did not live here then. I moved here in the '90s. But I remember, I grew up in West Virginia and I
remember watching the news...
ED:
But let me tell you what Laster Chapel did at that time. I always thought we ought to do something for
children. Okay. So, when I came back from Emanuel County in '64; when I came to Eva Thomas in '64, I
thought I had struck it rich. Boy, I am back home. I'm near my mama. I'm near my church and I'm near my
bank. And the Eva Thomas building was located so I could walk to all three of those places... it was just... so I
bought a house just up the street from the, from the school and put my mama in it. Anyway, with the
murdered missing children, Laster Chapel was doing little summer camps and little different things for
children over the years.
MS:
Could you spell that?
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�ED:
L-A-S-T-E-R C-H-A-P-E-L. It’s not a United Methodist Church. And we were going to do summer camp
anyway because well, we did like what Bible school was at that time. You know how you do the bible school
for two weeks and... but this time we were going to do the bible school. The North Georgia conference came
up with some kind of plan that they were going to help to finance any church that wanted to... do summer
camp, get children off the street. And Laster Chapel, of course, I said, "Help us do what we want. We've been
trying to do it anyway." We housed... and then I went to the Board of Education to ask that we could use Eva
Thomas School as our site... It was granted. The only thing they said was don't go into the music
department and don't go into the PE department you know, but you got access to the school, the cafeteria
and everything.
MS:
This was the Fulton County Board.
ED:
This was the Fulton County Board and this was the Eva Thomas School. And we, for six weeks, we did
summer camp for 240 kids. And I was like the supervisor. Judge Lou Honeycutt was the director. And, and
they supplemented the money that I... and I had almost every youth that was active in our church. They
were the counselors in this, and we had a good time. And at the close of that program, we have this
superintendent... everybody came, because we had a combination program that you wouldn't ever believe.
It just went real good. And when we continued the program, even after we didn't get supplemented the
funds. And we didn't get back into the Eva Thomas building, but we used our church.
MS:
So, did you all raise your own money to do it, then if you weren't getting...?
ED:
We raised our own money. I was always fortunate. And that's the thing I liked about it. It was always that
anytime we came up with a plan, there was always people who was willing and ready to help get it done.
MS:
It sounds to me like, and you can tell me if this is right. It sounds to me like the church, community and
school were all kind of one. They operated together in your community.
ED:
Yes, it did. It did. And it made a difference. When you belong, you feel like you were part of... you belong to
it. When, anything I do in College Park is all right, because you're one of us, you know.
MS:
Right.
ED:
Yeah. So those were the... those were the good old days.
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�MS:
I want to talk a lot about Eva Thomas, before we finish up. How did you, or your family or how did you
specifically get to College Park, Lawyer?
LD:
How did I officially get to College Park?
MS:
What brought you to College Park?
LD:
Well, what brought me to College Park is uh... after... before I finished school...
MS:
At Tuskegee?
LD:
Tuskegee. I was called into the Army. And so, at that time, you had to register to go into the armed service.
And so, I went home... Okay, I'm coming to that. But anyway, I went on into service during my sophomore
year of college. And I spent two years in the service. And during my service in Korea, I was under the
guidance of Captain [inaudible]. And I was stationed at Fort Arkansas at the time. And we had to take a test
to see what was going on overseas. And so luckily, I was the only Black in the group.
MS:
You said you were the oldest?
LD:
The only Black in the group to pass the test. And they sent me to White Sands, New Mexico. And there I
finished my career in the service. And I promised my family, mother and dad, that I would go back to
school, which I did. And I finished college there. And from there, as I first said, I taught school in Lumpkin,
Georgia and Richmond, Georgia. So, after that, I came to College Park. I was told by my brother-in-law to
come to College Park. And by the way, not only he but a friend of mine at Tuskegee, he knew he was born
here in Atlanta. And he asked me to come to College Park. And he got in touch with my principal. He said, I
knew a good man that could teach industry. I'm sure you would like to have him on your staff. So, I came to
Atlanta, and I was hired, and that's why I've met Mrs. Dudley. [all laugh]
MS:
What was your maiden name? Was it... I think you...
ED:
Schell. S-C-H-E-L-L.
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�MS:
So, so um, what year was that about? What year did you come to College Park then?
LD:
I came to College Park in '65.
MS:
So, you were probably what? 20, 30, 20 something? No, you were... how old were you?
LD:
I was. I think I was about 31. Yeah, 31.
MS:
Right. And this is where you all met?
LD:
Yes.
MS:
You were teaching. Now, I don't want to get too personal, but tell me about when you all met.
ED:
Well, see what happened now, Mr. Gilbert, we were doing schedules. And we needed, we needed someone
to do one of the math classes and he said, "Well, we got Mr. Dudley in woodshop and stuff..." and so I said,
"Let me go see if he knows enough math to teach..."
LD:
You were the head of the math department...
ED:
...at this school, I was the head of the math department, and I was determined that our kids were going to
get what they needed. Because I know how important it was. And you might not remember this, but this
was the beginning of the set theory...
MS:
Set theory?
ED:
S-E-T theory, you know, when this is... when mathematics was a set theory. And no… what had happened
was that the time I was in Swainsboro in Emanuel County, that the National Science Foundation was
offering scholarships to teachers in the state of Georgia who wanted to learn the set theory, of course. And
so, I came every summer I went to Atlanta University for nine weeks, taking these classes to get ready for
this set theory. And what... they paid... and I was head of the household at my house, and they gave you… so
much for dependents. And everybody in my house was dependent on me, so I got a lot of money. [laughs]...
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�LD:
It was like a stipend...
ED:
...a lot of knowledge and a lot of money. And I was having a good time. Well, what I did each summer, when I
went back to Emanuel County, I taught those kids what I had learned. And those kids were going... most of
them went to Savannah State. But it was something at that time, it was a big deal at Savannah State what
they did school plays, and they would do... like, the plays, the events then were something like basketball
and football, you know. And so, this one, one particular year, it was at the Emanuel County gym, and they
were coming from all over the region to have a place. And they came that particular Friday. And my
principal, called Mr. Williams. He said, "Ms. Dudley, they need you in the gym," and I said, "No, I'm not... not
the play person. I'm not in that." He said, "But somebody needs to see you." So, when I got over there, this
director, this person in charge of this event, he said, "I just wanted to see you. And thank you for all of those
students that you're sending to Savannah State that already know the set theory."
MS:
[laughs]
ED:
He said that in the big auditorium. And most of our kids and John Larson, they'll tell you that right now,
won't they, Dudley? Most of them went to college and served as teaching assistants. Because it was new for
the teachers. And if the teachers hadn't done the workshops... but anyway, that's not what you asked. You
asked about Mr. Dudley. I'm acting like him now, I'm jumping all over...
MS:
That's okay. That’s okay.
ED:
So, so when I went to see Mr. Dudley, I wanted to know if he knew the set theory, because this is the new
math. And so, he said, "No, I didn't do that yet." [laughs] And I said, "Well, I'm just sorry, sir. You can't do
that." So then. So, Mr. Gilbert said, "What are you going to do?" At that time department heads were doing
full classes. I said, "I’ll take six classes. I'll teach all day long if it takes that. "No, we can't let you do that.
That's against the policy and all that." I said, "Well, Mr. Dudley can't do it, sir." And I remember different
times when Mr. Dudley would go to his workshops with all of his folk and, and the man from Headland, in
particular, would tell him, "Man, your wife doesn't know what's going on in this county." And he would tell
them, say, "Your wife is down there teaching those remedial classes and the other departments are
teaching college bound classes." Well, I was teaching some of that too, but I wanted those kids. You
understand what I'm saying? Who, who needed it the most... that I know I wanted to give it to them. And I
think I was the only department head and the – well I was really the only Black one anyway – in the Fulton
County School System, that taught remedial classes. You get them you know, a teacher...all they want to do
is be a teacher. They want those kids who already know it. But I get right now... I got a phone call like last
week there was one telling me, "I don't know what I would have done if you had not been my teacher." And
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�I got some kids in Fairburn, because when they, when they closed Eva Thomas School that time, I went to
Campbell High School in Fairburn and they became my kids. You know, everywhere I go, those were my
kids. Those was my children. And one little girl, I remember they put her in the remedial class. Little white
girl. And she said... and I said... I would always get: "How much do you already know?" I came up with that
myself. And I tell you what they said, "Oh, Ms. Dudley is the best disciplinarian ever, because when they
walked through the door, I'd hand them a sheet. "Do (this) now. Get this done in five minutes, you get five
points." You know, that means you got to be quiet while I'm standing in this door. I'm not saying I'm the
best in the world, but I was almost. [all laugh]... but, but almost... but anyway... So, I said, "We're going to
take you out of remedial class, because you need to do this and that. College bound students, you won't be
able to get to college with these classes, right?" And so, her mom and dad came over there and we did this
little interview and... And I said, "I'm sure she can do it if she wants to do it." The little girl now, she became
like some president of a bank down in Fairburn, Georgia.
MS:
No kidding.
ED:
You know and when they would do stuff like that... and I had a... from Palmetto, my grandson is a Union City
policeman. Now, what happened... we got a child when we were old folk, okay? We adopted a great-great
grandson... nephew, when we were old folk. So now we got young grandchildren. We're having a good time
with them. [laughs]
LD:
I think one of your, one of your students on the same set that you are speaking of... One of your students is
working for Chick fil A.
ED:
Oh, yeah.... Well, he knows. He knows that. He knows about the Chik-fil-A Truett.
MS:
Yeah, sure.
ED:
And... Andrew, Andrew who was recently... he recently became the CEO for his daddy...
MS:
Truett Cathy...
ED:
Cathy. Well, and I... what was the daddy's name?
LD:
I can't recall...
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�ED:
Andrew, Andrew. Anyway... that was after I retired, I was at Landmark. I went to Landmark...
MS:
Landmark Christian?
ED:
Landmark Christian. I went there. Mr. Presley, who had been my principal, at one time became headmaster
down at Landmark and he called me to see if I could come in there part time. And I met Andrew and, and a
lot of other kids and... But what was interesting about that, when I got to Landmark, all of the kids sitting
there looked like the kids that were there when I was at Campbell High School. And I, and I could go around
and tell them who their parents were. [laughs] It was interesting. So, I've done a lot of crazy strange, like
things, you know, but it’s always been fun.
MS:
So, you obviously, were very dedicated with… to your students.
ED:
Oh yes.
LD:
She sure is.
MS:
I would imagine...
ED:
I still do tutorial stuff.
MS:
Do you?
ED:
...and getting and getting a call or an email from somebody even now that says thank you. That means a lot.
LD:
It does.
MS:
I believe it.
ED:
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�On my birthday, it would be about 240... they called me from Florida, from New York from all over. ...from
Emanuel County... And I had this company call from Palmetto the other night because they saw my son, my
grandson. And they said, "When are we going to lunch?" I say, "Real soon, real soon, real soon." I don't, I
really don't go any place now. I don't want to go anyplace. I want to just stay there, stay at home. And when
they say I need to see you, I stick my head out the back door.
MS:
Here I am.
LD:
And to answer you on that, which she's forgot to mention… Creflo Dollar.
MS:
Yes.
ED:
Would you believe Creflo Dollar gives me... Creflo gives me credit for him being in the ministry today? And
would you believe he has two sermons with my name in it?
MS:
Well, I believe it.
ED:
How do like that? [laughs]
MS:
I believe it. It’s a legacy.
ED:
We would do... and that goes back to the church. We had each second Sunday, we had a special program for
the kids, not lots of type of kids, but the community kids and they came from all the churches. We had; we
call it the anniversary every second Sunday. And we had asked Creflo to like be the emcee in the afternoons.
And I think I must have given him like $25. And that was a lot of money. And... he said, he'll tell you today
when I tell you it was in some of his sermons. And he'll call me. I get a call from somebody connected with
him and he wanted to know about. Just before... I just keep cutting stuff out... just before we went in, I had a
luncheon date with him. And he was going to send to pick me up and I was to tell him what I wanted for
lunch and, and we were going to sit... we're just going to sit and talk. “And anytime you have some time, Ms.
Dudley, come and see me.” Yes, I just feel so... I'm just having a good time.
MS:
That's great.
ED:
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�I'm enjoying it... As of now I am 90 years old. And I've been to so many of my students’ funerals. you know?
MS:
Yeah.
ED:
And I just feel... and the lady called me the other day. She said, "How are you doing?" I said, "I'm scared. I'm
doing better than I think I ought to be."
MS:
Right.
LD:
And sometimes, you know, I know she forgets some things. She forgets... which I will bring to her attention,
Monica. She is a sponsor for Monica.
ED:
He doesn’t know about that R&B stuff. We're talking about education. Monica...
MS:
That's okay. Tell me who Monica is.
ED:
Monica is an R&B... What would you call it, Dudley... all of these singers... you know?
LD:
She's one of the top singers.
MS:
Yeah. Singer, performer. R&B.
ED:
Yeah, she was the one who was married to Shannon Brown, the basketball person…
LD:
…played with the Lakers…
ED:
But anyway, she... her stepdaddy... that's back to the church. Her stepdaddy he was our pastor. He came,
and at that time he was dating her mama. And Monica... and Monica didn't want her mama to get married.
So, he said, "Ms. Dudley, Monica likes you so much." And each summer, they would live [inaudible]. Oh, I
had a CMSP program that came from New York.
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�MS:
And you said: CMSP?
ED:
Comprehensive Math and Science Project.
MS:
I see.
ED:
New York implemented it for the Fulton County Schools. And they needed a coordinator for the Fulton High
School. And the interviews were on the day that Campbell High School had homecoming. And I was one of
the ones they wanted to interview. [laughs] But that particular day we had homecoming at Campbell. And
all these kids had sent me flowers, and I had flowers. I just did it, you know? So, when it was time for me to
go to the interview, I said I'm just going to have to go as I am and see how they accept me. So, I went for my
interview with this homecoming, all these homecoming flowers, and all these homecoming colors, ribbons
and stuff. So, when I walked out, I had some of the head of the departments from other schools and they
said, "You come for that interview?" I said, "I had to come as I am. I got to go back. I got work." So, when I
went in [inaudible], bless his heart from New York. He said, "Come in Miss Cheerleader." So, I came in and
to make a long story short, he said, "Why do you think you need to coordinate this?" I said, "Because you
wrote my program." When I read what that person was going to do, it was exactly what I wanted to do. And
I became the coordinator for that particular program for the Fulton County School System. So, they
supplemented my salary. And, like, on Wednesday, they would fly me to New York and... and I had to write
the curriculum for it. And at that time, it was in three schools in Fulton County. It was at Campbell High
School. It was at Lakeshore; it was Lakeshore then. and... what was that... Banneker.
LD:
Banneker.
MS:
So, this was this was after Eva Thomas. You were at Campbell. So, this would have been the 1970s?
LD:
I think it was because so that was the time that she was...
ED:
Uh oh, that was something else. That was at Clark College that reminded me I was doing on Saturdays. And
I... it had to be because I was actually at Campbell...
LD:
That was in the '70s.
ED:
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�Yeah.
MS:
Lawyer, where did you go after Eva Thomas?
LD:
After Eva Thomas?
MS:
Uh huh. Once it was no longer a high school.
ED:
Headland.
LD:
After the school became integrated...
ED:
You went to Headland, didn't you?
LD:
I went to Headland High.
MS:
And taught shop there?
LD:
Uh huh, which is known now as Paul D. West Middle School.
ED:
And then you went from there to Riverwood.
LD:
No, I went from there to South Fulton. South Fulton, where you finished high school.
ED:
Oh, sure and then to Riverwood.
LD:
And then I went to north county to Riverwood.
ED:
That's right. I forgot about that. Yeah.
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�MS:
When you all were teaching, and this is... I'm speaking before, before the schools integrated, were... How
much did you all know or participate with the GT and EA? The Georgia Teachers and Education
Association... Were you all members? Or was that a...
LD:
Yes.
ED:
Yes.
MS:
How a part of your profession... How would you describe that to somebody who's never heard of that
before? Or what kind of support it provided or how that... what you did?
ED:
You know...
MS:
I know, I didn't say I was going to ask you about that.
ED:
That's fine. But I went to the conventions, and they were talking good stuff, but it’s like they weren't getting
anything done. You know how you how you go and you... I think they meant well but their hands were tied.
You know what I'm trying to say?
MS:
I do.
ED:
But it was sounding good and now... you went too, because you were talking about it the other day. But they
tried… but something always seemed like in the way to get to go on to where you want to be. And then
when they started: they knew this and changing this and changing that. My big concern and my interest
was in: what is this going to do for the student?
MS:
I see.
ED:
My focus was always there. I didn't ever bother too much with the other stuff. I said, "Y'all take care of that
and let me see what I can do with what y'all hand down to help the kids so they can make it." You won't
believe this, but when we were at Eva Thomas School, if a kid graduated and got a good job, I would say, "If
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�you get a good job and you need a cosigner for a car, then I'll cosign." And at one time... and at one time I
was on 21 car loans. I cosigned for 21 cars. And every student except one came through. And the one that
didn't come through was a nephew. [all laugh]
LD:
Now our biggest interest was in trying to help the underprivileged kid.
ED:
But did you hear what i said? I was just going to be the parent for everybody. Now...
MS:
…in a day and age when you could be in...
ED:
And when... right now when you hear... I get calls all the time. I got one just like yesterday. They're telling
me you're doing too much for folk. Because right now I have... I have under my carport... I got out some
coolers and some boxes and stuff. And like some fella called me just yesterday and said, "Mrs. Dudley, when
are we going to get some turkeys?" And I said, “You're going to have a turkey by next Sunday." He was a
former student. He's an old man now. So, a lady called me, and she said, "Are you going to need some
turkeys this year?" And I said, "Yeah, I said. I told her, I said, "Anthony called yesterday and he wants to
know if he can get one and as I told him to call me back next Sunday. She said, "Well I got some. So, I call
him back. Each week, people call me and like they tell me Monday needs… whatever they need then... I
mean, it's not me spending my money. I'm just coordinating it. I call somebody who has the money, who has
the goods, and tell them I need them, and they come, and I put them under my carport. They don't come in
my house. I put in my... Dudley had this fella call him last week and he talked about going to homecoming in
Tuskegee. And he said, "Mr. Dudley, we’re coming... I'm coming by there... me and my lady are going to
come by and sit and talk to you a little while. And Dudley said, "Good." And I said "No. Dudley, don't tell him
it's good because you know we're not going to let him in the house. I mean, and they'd laugh at me like that.
That's how they do...
LD:
In all our life, we two as a couple, we're not, not interested in money. We're trying to help the
underprivileged kids and everything. That's our life. Because we too believe in, whatever you do for people,
that underprivileged and everything, God will give it back to you.
MS:
Was that your message to your students?
LD:
That's always been our message.
ED:
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�My thing was that I couldn't have made it without the people. My mama and eight of us. And like I said we
was in three rooms. And now when we had homework, if I didn't go up to the Davis's house, we had to
share a lamp. And the people, the neighborhood folk, I remember one, one day when I... I don't remember
what grade I was. But Miss Viola Sims, who was the insurance person. She was... you know how they used
go up to houses and collect insurance premiums. But anyway, she said, "Why are you at home?" I didn't
have no shoes. She said, "You stay right here, what size you want?" And I told her. She came back with me a
pair of shoes and took me to school. Okay, when I got ready... I had Timothy Nichol's mama, who was a
beautician in the neighborhood. And when I got ready to go to college, she said, "I'm not going to let you go
to college looking any kind of way." She said, "I'm going to make you an appointment every two weeks, and
you come like everybody else, and they don't know you're not paying." And when I got finally graduated
from college, and Miss Sims, the same lady who bought the shoes... I went by to see her, and she was sick.
And she said, "You got some money?" I said, "Not yet. I hadn't got paid. I just got a job." She took me to the
Bank of College Park... Bank of College Park. And she sat me down with this Mr. [inaudible] and she said,
"She's on the way out to college. I mean to work; she got a job. And I want you to give her a checking
account. And she... I bet she put like $100, whatever there. And she said, "And I want her to have your
number. And when she needs anything, she can call you." And if they hadn't done that for me, you
understand? So, I want to give back. And I… I want somebody else to feel like I feel like. That's why I keep
saying that was family. Those were the people who took care of us. And my mama had these sisters and
stuff and some of them were doing very well. And I remember there was three of them that lived in College
Park. And the ones from, that would live in Jonesborough and other places they would come to College
Park. They would visit with them. But they didn't visit us. And sometimes we would go by and see them
and, and they would wave at us. You know, but we needed something, you know what I'm saying? But every
time one of them got sick, it was my mama who took care of them. And I was thinking about it the other day
when my cousin, who is really sick now, that her mom... her mama... when we were children and her mama
had had a baby, my mama had gone down there to take care of her. And she told me that money...she said,
"Now when you, when you leave school, don't… don't go home, you come down to [inaudible] house. And
that's what I did. And when I got to [inaudible] house, she said, "When you get there, go to the back porch.
And I did. And my cousin Eddie May came to the one and waved at me. And I'm outside… But at that time, it
didn't matter. When I think about those little things about how [inaudible] used to come to College Park
and they never come to see us. And but, when I got a teaching position, you would’ve thought I was Miss
America. Roberta's got a child that's teaching. She finished college and she's teaching. [laughs] My mama
was one of 17...
MS:
17?
ED:
...and she had eight of us. We got... a whole lot got more than that, but anyway... those are the kinds of
things, you know. I mean, I'm alright with it. You know what I'm saying? But I'm just saying it made me who
I am, and it helped me to know that other people need that help. You need to do something for somebody.
MS:
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
�So, I wanted to talk specifically now about the Eva Thomas experience.... your all's experience there. It was
the kind of... school… it wasn't there very long, a brand new building. Right? Lawyer, you mentioned you
came in 1965?
ED:
Right.
LD:
'66.
MS:
'66? So, you wouldn't remember...
LD:
I'm sorry. '65.
MS:
So, you won't remember the school being built.
LD:
No.
MS:
I know, just from our records, that it was part of an urban renewal project… you mentioned this before as
was we were introducing ourselves to each other, how College Park has kind of changed and churches have
been... Do you remember the construction?
ED:
I remember, I remember that urban renewal. It was just like, tear down and relocate. And there were a lot
of little houses over there. They used to call them shotgun houses. They tore all those houses down. I
remember that they went like... seemed like to me they went from Princeton to Virginia Avenue because
they had started building houses and stuff on Virginia Avenue at that time. They went up there and it
stopped. And it seemed like they went on the other side up to John Wesley, because we were on a lower
part of John Wesley, but there was some white folk on the upper part of John Wesley. And that was... on
Princeton, there was a little hole in this church. And… and I remember hearing somebody say it... that they
didn't want to say. So, whatever they used to condemn it.
MS:
Right.
ED:
And they tore it down. I remember all of that. All that was gone, you know?
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�MS:
Do you remember... were there any? Do you remember people specifically that may have had to leave
because of that? And you know, the circumstances surrounding that?
ED:
I remember, yeah, I remember. I remember some people that lived there. I think it was Ken French and the
folks who live there that moved... that they had to move. And they went... maybe John Wesley or somewhere
with the relatives or something. And some of them left town. Some actually left College Park.
MS:
Sure. I would imagine so.
ED:
But I remember that. It seemed like they came in to do... what they come to do? They tear it down. And all
they didn't tear down, they relocate. It was a lot of stuff that went on.
MS:
Yeah, I know that in the 1960s. Just from studying the, you know, when I went to school, that urban
renewal, kind of nationwide was... It affected a lot of people in good ways and in bad ways. And it's
interesting to hear, I was just curious. So, Eva Thomas High School... here you are, you're... you all are pretty
young, you're teaching there. It's a brand-new school. I mean, did they have, you know, do they have all the
sports? Tell me a little bit about the school itself, in general. Do they have activities besides academics?
How many students you know, just kind of a general...
ED:
They had... you know, it was like a regular normal high school. And, and I think the good thing about it was
that... I think all the teachers were just like I was. They were at home. They were with Mr. Gilbert, who was
the person who wanted them there. And we took the kids to be like ours. We're going to make them the
best that we can do. And I don't have to tell you about Mr. Dollar and that basketball team...
MS:
The basketball team, yeah.
ED:
And... and he would... if they weren't there on the day they were supposed to be there, or something was
coming up... he would call. He would go pick them up. Go get them out of bed. Go… go pick them up and
stuff.
MS:
Remember how many students were there about? In the 60s?
ED:
I can't remember how many students. I really don't know.
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�LD:
I have no idea.
MS:
That's okay. It's not something that you...
ED:
But... we had all kind of activities. We had the yearbook... ...and music. Mrs. Moore was something else with
that music. And Mrs. Moore had been my music teacher in high school.
MS:
Music? No kidding.
ED:
And now she was my coworker.
MS:
There you go.
ED:
Yeah. But... yeah. The thing that we had really going for us was, just like I said, a lot of my students were...
most of my students... were like their parents were my friends.
MS:
Sure.
ED:
You know, we kind of... their parents, you know, these were our kids.
MS:
I got the impression from Ursel and Charles that as a kid, if you acted it up, you know... there was always a
pair of eyes that knew your parents. There was a relative everywhere you were.
ED:
And when you say that I thought about when Otis Moore did something. And we would visit... we go to the
houses, because you didn't have phones and all that other stuff. And I remember I said, "I'd be by your
house this afternoon." So, when I drove up to his yard, a big dog was sitting on the porch, and I blew the
horn, and his mama came to the door. And she said, "What is this?" And I said, "I told him I was coming by
here.” And she said, "That's why he's got that dog out there." But those kinds of things. And... we had people
like Anthony [inaudible], who was working nights. And he would come to school and go to sleep. So, I went
by his house and his mom said, "Well Miss Dudley, I'm sorry, we need the money." I said, "Ma'am, please,"
you know, so I said, "We need to work with this a little bit.” Those are the kinds of things we did. But let's
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
�see, I can't... When we closed the Eva Thomas High School, one, one thing happened. I think I sponsored the
prom. I think, I think I was sponsoring prom, and we had monies in the treasurers. And they allowed me to
take a bus and take them too Lake Winnepesaukah to spend the money.
MS:
Wow.
ED:
So, this is a free trip. Yeah. You know, um, we did all those kind of things.
MS:
Lawyer, was there any student that stuck out to you from your time at Eva Thomas? Or anybody who left an
impression on you more than anyone...?
LD:
Quite a few.
MS:
Any one or two that you'd care to...
LD:
Yeah...
ED:
He has someone right now who called him. What'd they call... what'd they call you?
LD:
Bird.
ED:
Bird. But when Mr. Dudley came, he had a little thing in his head, and they started calling him Bird. The kids
called him Bird. Well, he didn't like it. I told, I told him the best way to deal with it is to laugh with them, you
know? And so now they want to make him mad. They say, "Hey, Bird." [laughs]
LD:
Some of my students are...
MS:
B-I-R-D, bird?
ED:
Bird. Some of my students saw it... I remember a game I attended. The Braves game. And one of my white
students attended Georgia Tech. You know the students always remember the teacher.
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
�MS:
Sure. Yeah, we do.
LD:
But the, but the teachers don't remember. The kid is... and he spotted me from a distance. He ran up to me.
"Mr. Dudley! Mr. Dudley! How are you?” I said, "I'm fine. Who are you?" He said, "I was one of your students
at Paul D. West." He says, "I'm so proud of you." He said, "I never will forget you." He said, "You taught me
all the theory around... architect."
ED:
But you know... back to Eva Thomas...
LD:
Because I was teaching the mechanical... He said, "I think about you all the time."
ED:
But back to the Eva Thomas part of it. And now... a lot of those kids wanted to do... And, and a lot of... and a
lot of them was... See, when it comes to me back to my day... that if we didn't want to go to school, we didn't
have to. My mama wasn't into that. You understand what I'm trying to say? And I think that's the reason
why I wanted, I was the first to do what I did, because I wanted to. But if I didn't want to, I didn't have to.
And we had a lot of that at Eva Thomas High School. And we knew that. And that's why we had to kind of
like go to the houses and go talk to the mamas and because we know them by first names and stuff. We'd
say, "Now you know, we got to get this boy out of here. We got to do this." And we did a lot of that... a lot of
that.
MS:
So, you all are talking about this community of College Park and I know a lot of the people who are going to
be researching and listening to your all's interview are going to be interested to know... you know, before
the schools integrated, obviously, we have schools for Black students and schools for white students in
Fulton County. Obviously, by high school, you know, students are quite aware that they're in a segregated
school system, right? Was there any kind of message you as teachers had for them? I mean, you know what
I'm asking? It's, I'm sure it's hard when you're urging students to succeed, for them to be in a world where
there are things that are stacked against them. And how did, how do they overcome that? How did you help
them overcome that? Or was that part of what you did? Or was that a community effort?
LD:
Well, my part about that is, as I recall, when she and I were at Eva Thomas... at that time, before I went to
Paul D. West, the thing came was that husband and wife could not teach together. Okay? Although whites
could teach together.
MS:
Oh, okay.
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
�LD:
But Blacks could not.
MS:
I see.
LD:
Therefore, I was transferred. And my first day at Paul D. West, I was the only Black teacher there. The only
one there. And my students there seemed like they had never seen a (Black) person. Okay. First class
period, in my room, I could stand and look out the window and see the view from that side. The bell
sounded for everybody to go to their first class. The students would not leave the window to go to class.
And so, I walked over to them... and I simply said, "Did you all hear the bell ring? It's time for you all to go."
MS:
The only one...
ED:
We don't want him to put us out of here.
LD:
Okay.
MS:
No, no, no. You go ahead.
ED:
We're all right? Okay.
MS:
You all are fine.
ED:
...because he was talking about what you did for those kids at Eva Thomas
MS:
That's okay. That's fine.
ED:
The integration and stuff...
MS:
Yeah, no problem.
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�ED:
Okay. Okay,
LD:
So, you want me to continue?
MS:
Oh, yes, please.
LD:
Oh, yeah. And I said, "Did you hear the bell ring? It's time for you all to go to class." And so... I said, "You may
as well go to class, because I'm here to stay." And believe it or not, as of today, some of those kids, I still
remember. I'm still invited to the class reunion and everything. They just fell in love with me, and
everything...
ED:
But you had a lot of kids... the kids were aware of a lot of this. And they knew...
LD:
They knew.
ED:
And they knew... and especially after the reopening of Eva Thomas, there was a lot of bitter stuff, because of
some things that was written up about the kids and stuff. And I had a permanent place when it came in, and
all that kind of thing. But my thing to them was: concentrate on what you want to do. Keep focused on what
you want to do. And go forward, you know, because you can't win all these battles, you can't win and
some… you know, you don't even want to fight, you know what I'm saying? And so, and so... and when they
went to College Park High, and some of them went... was coming back saying stuff like, "They don't want us
up there." That's fine. Do what you got to do and get out as quick as you can. [laughs] Know what I'm
saying? What do you say, you can't fight?
MS:
Sure. There's what you control… what you can control.
ED:
Control what you can and focus on... keep your focus on what you love.
MS
Do you remember how you all found out? And when you found out that Eva Thomas, as the high school,
was going to be closed? You all probably know the story about H.E.W...4
US Department of Health, Education and Welfare (H.E.W.) was the federal agency charged with enforcing integration
in public schools after the signing of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
4
- 29 -
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�ED:
Yeah.
MS:
...Paul D. West5 and the Board...
ED:
Yeah.
MS:
You know...
ED:
They had told us that we would no longer be at Eva Thomas and they would let us know our assignment.
MS:
So, they were going to give you a new assignment?
LD:
I wasn't there then.
MS:
You weren't there?
LD:
No.
MS:
So, you'd already gone.
ED:
You were already gone.
MS:
Because of the rule that you all couldn't be...?
LD:
Yes, yes.
MS:
Okay, so did you find out that summer that the school was going to be closed?
5
Superintendent Paul Douglass West, Fulton County Schools.
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
�ED:
I think we find out like the end of '69? Whatever it was, anyway...
MS:
Yeah, it was going to be, they were going to close it before it started the fall of '69.
ED:
Yeah. Yeah. And it's and... we were given our assignments... I believe at that time, I went to Lakeshore.
Seemed like to me it was Lakeshore. Wherever it was, I knew about the protests and all that kind of thing.
And I would drive by to see some stuff. And I remember... and I saw some things that I wouldn't ever
believe that I could have seen.
MS:
Care to share?
ED:
You know what I discovered when I was researching... because I've known about this for a while just
working here long before I met you all. I had; I knew some… some of the elder people who was really
supposed to have been at home sick. I saw one particular lady that I didn't even know she could walk. But
she had a big... she was walking down the street just limping with a big box. And I say, "what?" I said, "What
do you have?" And then she said, "I baked some cookies." You think about that. Then I had... but I could
never go down. I'm teaching still. I want to see what's going on. But I don't want to be there, you know.
Then I saw some people that I hadn't seen in years and years and years, that didn't go nowhere, and didn't
do nothing that was walking with... I think hamburgers and feeding them. And, and I couldn't talk to them,
you know, but... who was that? Somebody came to say, "Hey, Ms. Dudley."... But I will go by, I don't know... it
didn't last but a few days. But anyway, whatever it was, it let you know that in spite of how people felt, they
came up with enough energy to support this thing that I think needs to happen. Because when you really
think about it, and right now, presently you when you think about it, you say why did it build that school.
You know?
MS:
That's what makes it such an honor and privilege for you all to be here. The school construction on the
school... or … the school opened two months after the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which would have made it
illegal to build, right?
LD:
Right.
MS:
But at the same time, your community in College Park was getting this wonderful new building facility. So,
it's hard to argue, am I right?
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
�ED:
That's right.
MS:
And you can tell me if I'm not.
ED:
Those are the things I'm talking about.
MS:
It's very complicated, right? It's very complicated because you can… you can have a pride in your
community school at the same time that that school is, you know, a segregated school. So, it’s a fascinating
story. And I think it's very interesting that... well, I didn't know about the teacher rule that put you
somewhere else...
LD:
There's one thing that I'm concerned about...
MS:
Yes, sir.
LD:
...which I said that I still have left, and I'm still concerned about it. I know you are here to interview us, but
there's one question which probably in your mind, and probably another people's mind that... which you
just mentioned that: it is a beautiful school as a... but why was the name taken away from Eva Thomas,
when she was a very great educator? And that's that is one thing I'm concerned about.
MS:
Yes, sir.
ED:
Well, there is a lot of stuff you could, you could think about and ask him about and stuff. Like he said, but
you're, and you were right. Some people were so proud to have a school. You know, so you're saying why
don't we fight this? You could just, you know... it was a lot of things to think about, really.
LD:
There's another issue that I would like to mention, I know you have interviewed quite a few people... and
the people that I knew in College Park, like I say, I met my wife there. There's a lot of people that probably
have come to you, which you have interviewed in the past before our coming here, that even wasn't born in
College Park and does not know anything about College Park like she does.
MS:
Right, right. Yeah, there's going to be a lot of that.
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�LD:
Yeah. Yeah, and it's going to continue to be. It won't ever stop. Some of the stuff, some of the things that we
think need to won't ever stop but you know, we do what we need to do.
MS:
And I'm glad you brought those up, because those are on record now, those questions. And, and I couldn't
agree more why's, why did Eva Thomas, the name, disappear off a Fulton County school building? Well, so
that really kind of, you know, that kind of concludes the questions that I had for you, but I'll leave another
minute or two open if there's a message you have...
ED:
Well, what I wanted... and I'm not saying this because I'm involved... but the… in 2003 a group of young
adults... and back to Laster Chapel again... formed a scholarship. Emma Elsa Schell Dudley Scholarship
Foundation for any 12th grade graduating student in the state of Georgia. And as of today, they have given
over $250,000... since it was Laster Chapel in College Park, I like the kids to remember that. I want that to
be a part of something. Then the other thing when I talked about the murdered and missing children...
MS:
Yes.
ED:
...over 60 years now, each summer, up until like 20.... last time I think it was 1903... maybe two years ago.
But anyway, each summer, we took a group of kids for... after that second Sunday event... it would be the
second Sunday in July, either that Friday or Saturday, we would load the buses and take all the kids in the
College Park community to Florida to Myrtle Beach or somewhere. At one summer we took six bus loads.
And when I see some of them, they say, "When are we going to do another trip? We need to do a reunion
trip." If we had not done that, some of those kids would have never left College Park... would've been to
another state other than College Park. Another thing I wanted to talk about was Julie Crawford, who was
one of the ones who was from College Park. She did... this is Laster Chapel again... we had a revival about
four years ago. And one... the Monday night we named it College Park night. And we decided that we were
going to try to bring the people from College Park back into the church. And each pew in the church had a
street name. And we put it out there: “Come and get on your street.” You couldn't get all the folk in the
church. Think about that. You remember that, Dudley? And we had somebody make the sign, you come in
as a person, that's Columbia that decision and you go to your street... Oh, you've never seen anything like it
before. Now...
LD:
I think... cutting you off, if you and I are on the same subject, is that the time that we had the people come
back that had moved out of the community?
ED:
Yeah...
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
�LD:
We had 62 to join... rejoin that Sunday.
ED:
No, no, no, no... This is when we did this thing with [inaudible].
LD:
Oh yes.
ED:
Since then, she's wanted to, she's been asking for some way, somehow that we get the people together
again, in the form of sharing. And we were about to ask for that when all this stuff happened. But anyway,
she was thinking that we could just take them like to maybe [inaudible] and do a big thing and get one from
each family's street or something and just share some stuff. Just talk about it. And so, I thought, I don't
know how to do it or what to do. But I'm saying it everywhere I go. [laughs] Maybe it'll catch on
somewhere, you know.
MS:
I have... You've kind of sparked an idea, which I'll, I'll talk to you after I stop the recording. But there is one
thing I've failed to ask. And I guess... so part of, part of our doing these oral history interviews is to kind of...
one day we're hoping to put together an exhibit, which might go... you know, like a traveling exhibit, like
panels that we break down and we put up in each area high school.
ED:
Oh, wow.
MS:
And so, they would see these panels, you know, like you were in a museum. And it would be great to have a
little quote from everybody who went to Eva Thomas. And so, I'm going to ask each one of you individually,
maybe 30 seconds to a minute. What was... What's your greatest memory, what's the best thing about your
experience at Eva Thomas high school when you were there? and I'll start with you.
ED:
The best thing about Eva Thomas when I was there was the relationship that I had with the students and
the parents and that coordination... the support at that from home. And the appreciation that the students
seem to have now for what they get why they were there.
MS:
Great. Lawyer, what would you say?
LD:
- 34 -
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
�My greatest experience at Eva Thomas, as you notice when we... I walked into this building, and I noticed
the cleanliness of this building and everything... Eva Thomas was a school with our principal, Mr. Gilbert.
there was no writing on the wall. Nowhere. Even the bathroom. And they weren’t monitored. Well, those
are the types of students we had. And they were respectable to the teachers. That is my greatest memory.
MS:
Well, that's wonderful. And now I actually want to you know, while we're on recording, say thank you all
very much for coming...
LD:
Thank you so much for having us...
MS:
...and spending time with us. I'm going to stop the recording now.
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�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Description
An account of the resource
Oral Histories collected from alumni, students, teachers and staff of the Fulton County School System, 1980s-present.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Fulton County Schools Archives, Hapeville, Ga
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Michael Santrock
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Emma & Lawyer Dudley
Location
The location of the interview
Fulton County Schools Archives, Teaching Museum South, Hapeville, Georgia
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 35 pages
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History (transcript), Emma and Lawyer Dudley
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--Fulton County
College Park
East Point
Atlanta
segregation
teachers
urban renewal
Description
An account of the resource
Emma Dudley is a native of College Park who taught Mathematics at Eva Thomas High School, where she also served as the head of her curriculum department. Prior to her position there, she worked as a teacher in Emanuel County, Georgia. Emma Dudley attended South Fulton High School (Class of 1950) and Clark College.
Lawyer Dudley taught Industrial Arts at Eva Thomas High School, beginning in 1965. He is a native of Eufaula, Alabama. Lawyer Dudley attended Tuskegee College (now Tuskegee Institute) and served in the U.S. Army during the Korean War. He was among the first teachers in Fulton County to integrate.
The two met while teaching at Eva Thomas High School and were later married.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Fulton County Schools Archives
Mike Santrock
Emma Dudley
Lawyer Dudley
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Fulton County Schools Archives, Hapeville, Ga
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2021
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a><br />Direct questions regarding use to archives@fultonschools.org
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Document-Transcript, 35 pages
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
2021.ohfc.3
Campbell High School
Clark (College) University
Eva Thomas High School
Headland High School
Paul D. West Middle School
Riverwood High School
segregation
South Fulton High School
teachers
Tuskegee (Institute) University
-
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a05b1dcaa86914f737e6f85ccdee6e46
PDF Text
Text
Bruce Dunlap
Wednesday, December 12, 2021, 1 pm
Fulton County Schools Archives, Teaching Museum South, Hapeville, Georgia
Bruce Dunlap is a native of College Park, Georgia and a graduate of Eva Thomas High School, Class of 1967. He
began his education at Jefferson Franklin Beavers Elementary School and moved to South Fulton High School
in East Point before Eva Thomas was completed in 1964. Dunlap would eventually attend Clark College
(Atlanta, GA) on a music scholarship. He also served in the army and was deployed overseas. Dunlap’s wife,
Sylvia Dunlap (Eva Thomas, Class of 1970) was also present during the interview.
Michael Santrock:
I am Mike Santrock. I'm here with Bruce Dunlap. This is part of the Eva Thomas Oral History Project. It is
December 1, just after what's about 1pm, December 1, 2021. So, welcome, and thanks for coming. I
appreciate it.
Bruce Dunlap:
Thanks for having me.
MS:
You're welcome.
BD:
There I am right there.
MS:
We're looking at the 1966 yearbook for those of you who can't see.
BD:
I'd be a junior.
MS:
Did you know what you wanted to do? Back then? In high school?
BD:
Back then I wanted to be a... I wanted to go into music... music instructor or teacher or something like that.
That's pretty much what I wanted to do. I actually went to Clark College on a music scholarship.
MS:
Alright. What was your instrument of choice?
BD:
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�Ah, heavy brass. My main focus instrument was tuba.
MS:
Tuba, no kidding. Did Eva Thomas have a marching band?
BD:
No, not at that time. We had what we called a wind and brass...a wind and percussion ensemble. There was
only about 23, 24 of us. And as a matter of fact, the gentleman that leads Clark College, or Clark Atlanta
University's jazz band, was my instructor, Mr. James Patterson.
MS:
James Patterson. That name has come up before with some other conversations. Am I correct? He also...
didn't he teach at JF Beavers as well?
BD:
Yes, he did. That's where I first sat under him was at JF Beavers. I started band when I was in fourth grade.
And I had two band instructors there. I think the first one was Mr. Hudson. And Mr. Patterson was the last
one at JF Beavers. I think he had gone into the army or something or another; or he had gone to the
University of Michigan. I may have the order in that misconstrued, but...
MS:
Yeah.... So, Patterson, did he leave Eva Thomas to go to Clark? or was it a... I guess...
BD:
I, I am really not sure. I think so. I had gone by then. I left College Park in February of '69. And I went into
the army. And I never did move back to College Park after that. But he... I think he did go over to Clark,
because he was doing some teaching over there anyhow, like a couple of high school teachers at that time.
We had Mr. Wyatt, who was an alumni of Clark. He actually taught at Price High School, which is closed.
MS:
Right. Well, so just... let's... what we'll do to begin with is I was going to ask you about your childhood... just
ask you about your family, your parents, did you have siblings?
BD:
I had, well, I got a brother and I had a sister who is deceased. I came up pretty much in a... single parent
household after I was turned about seven, I guess, something like that. My father had served in World War
II and he had issues after that... a lot of issues. He left one day to cash his check. And I saw him one time
after that when I was about 12, 13. The next time I saw him, he was in a casket. It was about right around
Christmas when I was maybe 16 years ago.
MS:
But since, since you were about seven, you'd been raised by your mother, I'm assuming. And so where did
you fall as far as the two siblings were...?
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�BD:
Right in the middle.
MS:
Right in the middle. I'm a middle child, too. It's good and bad with that, I guess. [laughs] So what did you...
so were you raised in College Park?
BD:
Yes, I was. I went to JF beavers. From JF beavers, I went to South Fulton for a couple of years. And then they
built Thomas High. I graduated from Thomas High. I went to Clark College for about a year and a half and
went into the army.
MS:
Yeah. How did your mom make her living? How did you all make a living when you were young?
BD:
She didn't work very much when my father was there. You know, he worked. She was a maid at JF Beavers
for a good portion of the time that I was there. And so, I couldn't get away with too much. And then I don't
know, I think the Great Society came into being you know what I'm talking about? Urban Renewal and...
MS:
LBJ and all that?
BD:
...and all this, and she went to work for... I can't think of the name of it.... yeah, the E... E... what was it?
Sylvia Dunlap (SD)1:
Equal Opportunity...
BD:
Equal Opportunity...
MS:
Right.
BD:
...down there and... she worked right over here in East Point, as a matter of fact. She was a canvasser for
them for a while, and then she became assistant to the professional with them and that's where she worked
until she retired.
Sylvia Dunlap, spouse to Bruce; graduate of Eva Thomas High School, Class of 1970. Sylvia was present for the entire
interview.
1
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�MS:
Okay. So, um, so you went to JF Beavers. And how did you get to school? Did you walk?
BD:
Walked. Yep, walked... down the street, around the corner. You know, it wasn't far. I grew up there on
Princeton.
MS:
Okay.
BD:
Everybody walked. We didn't have buses, you know? Didn't matter whether you lived over on the other
side of College Park, which I think somebody documented... at College Park, the whole area of College Park
where Black people lived was one square mile or something like that. Everybody walked to school.
MS:
In speaking with Brenda, she talks about going up the hill, right? I guess up toward Main Street. And then
what is now College Park Elementary is kind of that area we're talking about right around that?
BD:
No, as a matter of fact, JF Beavers was over.... I don't know whether you're familiar with Brady's Gym?
MS:
Well, I've heard of it.
BD:
Yeah. The golf course there?
MS:
Yes. Yes.
BD:
JF Beavers was up the street from the golf course. You know, if you left out of JF Beavers and walked down
to Redwine... about a half a block or two, you're at the golf course.
MS:
Right. So the golf course was there, then?
BD:
Yes.
MS:
Oh, Okay. It's been there a while then... So, um, the first thing I like to do is because there's a lot of people
that may come in... you know, researchers that may come across your story and the stories of your
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�classmates, Eva Thomas High alum, that may not have a frame of reference for what College Park is like.
We're talking about a small suburb of Atlanta. Well, it's not so small anymore, actually. But for somebody
who's not familiar with College Park or its history, how would you describe it back in the mid-late 50s,
early 60s?
BD:
College Park was full of shotgun houses. And I don't know whether you know what this terminology is. A
shotgun house is a house that you can open the front door and pretty much look all the way straight
through, through the back door. There at 708 West Princeton, we had... a... it was three shotgun houses
right together. I call them double barrel because they had two sides to them. People raised their families
there. Eldrin Bell, who was the chief police for Atlanta, and a commissioner, was raised in one room
shotgun houses. I think members of my family occupied three of them. But it was... we were... it was a poor
neighborhood, but nobody considered themselves poor. You know, we didn't know that we were poor. But
looking back, I guess we were. But we didn't come up that way.
MS:
No sense of that when you were young?
BD:
We had a lot of food to eat and nice clothes to wear and everything. So, we had to use the bathroom on the
back porch, and I didn't have running hot water until I was 15, 16 years old, and we've moved to an
apartment, a two bedroom apartment that's still in College Park as we speak at 115 North Napolean.
MS:
Oh, wow. Did... was the... that plumbing, the lack of plumbing was that... Was that kind of like a lot of people
lived in that kind of?
BD:
Yes.
MS:
Yeah. Okay. I got this sense from talking with other alum that... it was, growing up there was kind of like
being raised by the community.
BD:
Yes.
MS:
You just mentioned that your mom worked at the school. And I know that there was kind of some jokes
about you couldn't do anything, because you'd be in trouble... there were always eyes looking at you...
BD:
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�Couldn't get away with too much. You know, we had our moments where we... you know, we were
teenagers and kids, so we did our mischief and whatnot. But everybody had respect for you know, people
that were grownups. We would go to Brady's Gym, and we had Mr. and Mrs. Brady, who ran the gym. And
Mrs. Brady could be there by herself and have a gymnasium full of teenagers and wouldn't have not one bit
of problem. Not... not, not one problem out of anybody. So...
MS:
That's great. So um, let's... take me back to when you were a student at JF Beavers. Was there any particular
teacher there that left an impression on you more than any other?
BD:
I wouldn't say that. I can pretty much remember all, well most of their names, but... I wouldn't say anyone
stood out over the others.
MS:
No? You remember the principal?
BD:
Our first principal there was Ms. Johnson. And then my first-grade teacher, Miss Benton, after Miss Johnson
left, she went to Africa as an educator.
MS:
Miss Johnson did?
BD:
Yeah, her and her husband. And Miss Benton became principal. And she was principal when I left JF
Beavers.
MS:
What was she like?
BD:
She was a nice lady, you know... very nice. I considered all of them were pretty nice. Now we had a... couple
of no-nonsense teachers. [inaudible]... Miss Huff. Now, she was pretty much no nonsense. But she actually
took off a strip of the plastic runner that goes up the... that they used to... thick stuff that they used on stairs
back then and she had a little swath of that that she would use, and she would hit you on your hand with it.
I only got hit one time, but...
MS:
That's a sting. [laughs] Were you a good student?
BD:
I would say so, yeah.
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�MS:
Yeah. Straight A student?
BD:
No.
MS:
No.
BD:
I got straight A's twice. I think in the second grade, and then my last semester of high school.
MS:
So we've kind of come to know through researching our records, the importance of the man, Jefferson
Franklin Beavers. He was a postal worker, I think.
BD:
Maybe so, I don't know. He actually lived next door to my aunt, Thelma Albert. But I actually don't know.
MS”
So, you never met him as a child?
BD:
No, I think he was going on.
MS:
So, it's fair to say when you were going to school there. You weren't, you didn't really have a sense of who
he was?
BD:
No, he had a picture up on the wall right in the hallway. But I think it's the same picture that you got here.
Yes. Yes, it was.
MS:
Yeah, that's... we inherited that portrait, which is really cool. And so I've... you saw the little display we
have? Yeah, that's based on everything that... all the records we have here is what we've learned about him.
So... so Jefferson Franklin Beavers was, was that first through seventh grade at the time?
BD:
Yes. Yes, it was.
MS:
Okay, so you went there first through seventh?
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�BD:
Right.
MS:
And then at that time... you graduated in '67, so you would have been in the first class going to Eva Thomas.
So prior to 1964, Eva Thomas did not exist. So all the students... from where... went to South Fulton?
BD:
At South Fulton? And to be clear, this is a school for Black students only, correct? From College Park. I want
to say Hapeville... Add a little area over off Jonesborough Road that was called [inaudible] Creek. And East
Point, all went to South Fulton, and we still only had about 600 people. Right.
MS:
And the school system was segregated at the time.
BD:
Right.
MS:
So, obviously you had a sense of this, by the time you're going to South Fulton that you are going to school
that's segregated by race.
BD:
Right.
MS:
What did that mean to you at that point?
BD:
It didn't mean anything to me, really. I guess, in retrospect it might mean a little bit but at that time was just
the norm. You know, just the thing that was and... just like they had a couple of little restaurants on Main
Street in College Park, but we didn't... we couldn't eat in them. You know, they had one that... if you wanted
something out of there, you had to go around to the back door, and they would serve you out of the back
door. You know, it was just the way it was. We didn't think anything... we'd get on out of the school bus...
Now, we did bus to South Fulton, because that was quite a trip. When we get on the school bus in the
morning, if you didn't have extracurricular activities in the afternoon, you get on the bus and come back
home in the afternoon.
MS:
Yeah.
BD:
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�I was in the band, and we'd have to hitchhike home or walk.
MS:
So, you practiced after school.
BD:
Right.
MS:
And then you did literally hitchhike back home... from... and... to clarify, South Fulton was in East Point...
College Park... what, three or four miles away?
BD:
Yeah, it was probably longer than that.
MS:
Too long to walk for sure.... So, South Fulton... you're in the band. Were you in any other extracurriculars?
BD:
No, just the band.
MS:
Anything stand out to you from your time at South Fulton? Any teachers or... principal there... Was McClarin
the principal?
BD:
McClarin was the principal. Ms. Addie Harris was the vice principal. The... I think Dr. Gilbert was, I think he
was... I forget which department he was in, but he actually became principal at Eva Thomas. Mr. Thomas,
who was a shop teacher at South Fulton, became vice principal at Eva Thomas. And we had a couple of
teachers that came over from South Fulton. Miss Moore, who taught chorus, she came over and... Miss Hill,
who taught English at South Fulton, came over to Eva Thomas and... Mr. Gilbert actually hired a bunch of
students that he had taught at South Fulton as teachers. So, a lot of them were pretty young.
MS:
Yeah. So, I wonder... I've always kind of wondered how many people, how many students from South Fulton
went with you to Eva Thomas when Eva Thomas opened.
BD:
Our first graduating class had what, about 11, 12, 13 people, something like that. Oh okay, so its small.
Mine had about 36, I believe. And South Fulton was pretty much the same. They took a small school and
made two small schools. So, there wasn't that many of us.
MS:
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�You ever wonder why they did that?
BD:
Yeah, I know why they did that... There was some talk in the air about legislation where you could not pass
a school to go to another school. And to prevent us from going to College Park High, they built Thomas High
in case this became the law of the land. So, they built Thomas High, so we wouldn't have to pass by College
Park High to get to South Fulton.
MS:
So, to kind of preserve the status quo.
BD:
To preserve the segregation.
MS:
So, you're living in College Park, and you're going to South Fulton over in East Point. Do you recall Eva
Thomas being built? Do you remember when it was being constructed?
BD:
Yeah, it was right up the street from me.
MS:
Yeah. Okay. What was that like? I mean, how'd that change the... the area?
BD:
Well, they... pretty much it changed where people lived before... there was a... the Titanic was over there.
Titanic was this...
SD:
[inaudible] It was still there...
BD:
...this huge building, and everybody called it the Titanic.
MS:
Nicknamed the Titanic? [all laugh] That's funny, I hadn't heard that one yet.
SD:
That's where the playground is now.
MS:
And so, what, what was that?
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�SD:
It was on McDonald Street
BD:
It was, it was... apartments.
SD:
[inaudible] it was my family home. And [inaudible] they bought property over there. And so, now where the
playground is... at College Park Elementary?
MS:
Uh huh.
SD:
That's where we was. That's where we stayed.
MS:
You know, we... we know now that that was part of an Urban Renewal project: Eva Thomas. And... also
looking at Urban Renewal across the country, it kind of... it, it created a lot of things, but it disrupted a lot of
things too. Did you see any of that kind of people?
BD:
There was a church there, they had to move. There were people that had homes... down there on Napoleon
Street. They had to relocate. You know, I guess it disrupted some lives. But they... I don't know... I was
young, I was...[laughs] You know, you kind of flow with the... trend. Whatever was going on, you know, you
just ride it out.
MS:
So your first day at Eva Thomas. Was that exciting? Are were you just...
BD:
It was... it was good. You know, it was good. It was... a really better atmosphere. I think for me it was, you
know. But I didn't have too many problems at South Fulton. For a while there, I wanted to be a thug in the
ninth grade. But I grew out of that. And I decided I wanted to graduate on to the 10th grade. So that kind
of... [inaudible] part of life. But... we got to Eva Thomas, like I say, most of the teachers, some of them were
from College Park. My cousin actually taught English there, you know. And we kind of knew everybody,
knew the teachers, and they, like I said, were - for the most part - younger. And I don't know, it was just fun.
You know, just going to school was fun. I just hated to miss school.
MS:
Yeah, you had a brand-new building and brand-new facility and everything. And now you're not riding the
bus anymore again, you're walking.
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�BD:
Right. Yeah.
MS:
Do you remember the first day you went there?
BD:
Nah.
MS:
No?
BD:
No.
MS:
Not specifically?
BD:
I graduated in '67. That was fifty-something years ago...
MS:
Yes sir.
BD:
...I wouldn't even remember the last day.
MS:
Yes sir. I got you. So, I would, we've... we've talked, you mentioned Mr. McClarin, Principal McClarin, back at
South Fulton High School. Do you remember anything about him? Remember what he was like?
BD:
I think he was a pretty nice guy, I believe. I only had interaction with him one time and that was when I cut
class.
MS:
Was that the ninth grade? [laughs] Back to the ninth grade.
BD:
That was the time, he gave me a couple of... about three, four days late duty.
MS:
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�What was late duty?
BD:
After everybody else was out, you had to sit in his office or somewhere and... until the second wave of...
second couple of buses were ready to take off. And then you would run out there and get on the... jump on
the bus right quick for a second. Yeah.
MS:
What do you remember about Principal Gilbert from Eva Thomas?
BD:
We called him "Doc." He was good guy. He was a nice guy.
MS:
Why Doc?
BD:
He had a doctorate, I guess. Everybody called him Doc. He was all right. You know, if he caught you smoking
in the bathroom, you know he'd make you smoke a whole pack in his office there after school. I never got
caught doing that. Not that I didn't smoke, but...
MS:
Right.
BD:
I think everybody smoked back then in those days.
MS:
Yeah. Was there a part of the school that everybody smoked, or was it everywhere?
BD:
Nah, just smoke and stuff up there in the upstairs bathroom and stalls in the bathroom.
MS:
In the bathroom.
BD:
Yeah. We had [inaudible]... teacher was kind of [inaudible] ...trash can back there. They would move, then
we could throw them out.
MS:
Yeah. We have a map... I don't know if you saw it... of the school. Somebody was describing this courtyard to
me. I can't remember if it was... I spoke to Jessica Muhammad, Jessica Allen.
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�BD:
Yeah.
MS:
But... but it's kind of interesting to see. It's such a different building now. I guess they, this buildings is just
totally gone, now that College Park Elementary...
BD:
I don't even remember a courtyard.
MS:
No?
BD:
No, I don't.
MS:
Oh. Okay. And so... extracurriculars at Eva Thomas, what all did... what all were... what all was available for
students to do back then?
BD:
Just had band, chorus and basketball. That was it.
MS:
Was that for both boys and girls? All the above?
BD:
Uh huh.
MS:
Yeah? And you were involved in band obviously?
BD:
Band and Chorus.
MS:
And chorus? So, you're a singer too.
BD:
Used to be.
MS:
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�And so Patterson, you must have had a really good relationship with him, because... now... you went and got
their... your scholarship to Clark. And so, you studied under him both in high school and...
BD:
Well, not under him at Clark.
MS:
No?
BD:
Because he was still at Thomas High when I left there.
MS:
Oh, I see.
BD:
He stayed there for, I don't know how many years, couple of years. Like I said, I went in the Army and... kind
of lost, lost track.
MS:
Yeah. So... Do you mind if I ask were you drafted? Or did you enlist?
BD:
No. I enlisted. I actually enlisted to play in the Army Band. I went over at Fort McPherson and auditioned,
got accepted and everything. And then when I went down to the old Ponce de... Sears building, at Ponce de
Leon and... down there somewhere... to test and everything. My recruiter told me, he said, "You got some
people that want to talk to you." I said, "Who are they?" He says, "Army Security Agency. I don't know too
much about them." He said, "but they want to talk to you. You did real well on the test." And I said, "Okay."
So, I went in and I talked to them and they said, "You did real well on your test. So, what we do is we
conduct a $10,000 security clearance on you." This was in 1968. That was a lot of money.
MS:
Yeah.
BD:
And he said that, "You'll never have to go to Vietnam, because the Army Security Agency is not in Vietnam.
A lot of our duty stations, you'll wear plain clothes." And I had just turned 19. And I said, "Oh boy, I'm going
to be a Black James Bond." And he said, "The only drawback is that you have to spend four years." I said,
"Okay, where do I sign?" So, I signed up. And my first overseas duty station was Vietnam.
MS:
They... so, you ended up going straight there.
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�BD:
But USASA was not in Vietnam. So...
MS:
No. But you were.
BD:
But I was.
MS:
Alright. So, I understand what you are saying. Where in Vietnam did you end up going? All over it?
BD:
I did go all over it, pretty much. My last duty station was up in northern I Corps, with the 101st First
Airborne Division.... and... close to the DMZ.
MS:
My dad was in Danang... about the time you were over there.
BD:
Yeah, yeah. I made a couple of trips to Danang. Went down [inaudible], Saigon, Kanto, Hue. Well, I was
fishing right there in Hue. Quang Tri, which you could throw a stone across the DMZ from...
MS:
Yeah. Where'd you go from Vietnam?
BD:
I went back. I actually got out of the Army Security Agency. I had a bad taste in my mouth, and I got
assigned to the ROTC Affairs Committee down at Fort Benning.
MS:
Okay, so you came back to Georgia.
BD:
Yeah. I spent 18 months down there and came home for Christmas leave and went back down there. And
they told me to report to building three. I think it was 83 or something like that. I said, "What's... what for?"
And they said, "Well, you know, they have to levy out about 15,000 people from here and you got Germany
stepped in before here." I said, "Oh my goodness. I'm going to spend my last year in Germany."
MS:
What parts did you go there?
BD:
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�I was again... I was on a [inaudible] missile site. So our battery, when it was full strength, of it was 160 of
us... had to go about 16 kilometers to go on sick call.
MS:
What... What's that mean now? Say that again.
BD:
16 kilometers to go on sick call.
MS:
To go on sick call.
BD:
Yeah. We had to go to the Air Force base to go on sick call. It was only just a few of us out here.
MS:
Wow. So then you came back to Georgia. And you all... when... how did you all meet?
BD:
In high school.
MS:
Oh, so you... You did...
BD:
Yeah, but we didn't...
MS:
You all weren't married before you went in the army?
BD:
No, we've been married 20 years.
MS:
I see. Okay. [to Sylvia] And your class of 1970. So, you were there in the summer when they announced the
school was going to be closed.
SD:
Right. They was getting ready to... get everybody together, saying that they was going to bus us to different
schools. And that started.
MS:
Yeah. Were you, did you... were you part of the sit-ins? Were you?
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�SD:
Yes. All the way.
BD:
Matter of fact, I was up in northern I Corps, we used to get a paper called Stars and Stripes. I forget the
frequency from which we got that paper up there. And I opened... got hold of one and opened it up and I
read about...
MS:
Eva Thomas?
BD:
Yeah.
MS:
Yeah, I've seen where that there was like media coverage all across the country in different places. I was a...
I don't know if you've seen it. They have... the University of Georgia has the WSB newsreel snippet footage
of it. Have you seen those? It's like two minutes... like there's been like 10 different, two-minute reels of,
showing the sit-in where they were doing nightly news broadcasts on it. I'll share it with you. I could share
it with you by email. It's just a link to where they have them and you can just watch him and everything. So,
you what... how's that make you feel when you're Vietnam and you hear about that?
BD:
Ah, I had other things to deal with, so it... [laughs]
MS:
That's going on there.
BD:
Yeah, okay. It wasn't really anything I just concentrated on; you know.
MS:
Yeah. So, when you came out of army, what was your rank?
BD:
Sergeant.
MS:
Sergeant… Well, that is a long way from home. [pause] Is there anything else you would want to share
about your time at Eva Thomas? For people may, may be looking back as the school doesn't exist anymore,
know what it's like?
BD:
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�Well, you know. It's... One thing about it, I like to say now I'd say, probably young enough to go to school,
you probably wouldn't want me there, because every school I've going to has either closed down or the
name has changed.
MS:
Right.
BD:
So, I went to... I actually took a couple of classes at... what was it then, Atlanta Junior College?
MS:
Uh huh.
BD:
Its name was changed to Atlanta Metro.
MS:
Yeah.
BD:
So, that's... every school I've gone to is either nonexistent, the name has changed.
MS:
They should just name the next one you go to after you. [laughs]
BD:
If I go back to one, I guess they would.
MS:
That's great. That's great. Yeah, I mean, I don't know.... So, Charles2 has been, like I said, been bringing stuff
in here to share. So, we've made copies of a lot of stuff. I don't know what you've seen and haven't seen in
our collections.
BD:
I actually gave him the program from our 50th class reunion. I guess he'll bring that in at some point.
MS:
Yeah, did he? Did he mention that you all had written something about Eva Louise Thomas. Is that what
you're...
BD:
He... well... yeah. I was the co-chair of the class reunion committee.
2
Charles Dill, Eva Thomas High School, Class of 1970
- 19 -
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�MS:
Okay.
BD:
50th class reunion committee and the... co-chair from South Fulton and myself, we give them the sketch of
it.
MS:
On her? Well, not on her, but... On the school?
BD:
On the school.
SD:
[inaudible]
MS:
Right. I guess he did mention something like that to me on the phone. Do you remember the day the school
opened? I mean, the dedication day at all?
BD:
No. I don't even remember there was a dedication.
MS:
I had a program. I don't know if it has the exact date on it.
BD:
Like I say...
SD:
19... It was 1964.
MS:
'64, yeah.
BD:
I don't remember that. [laughs] Is that it? [looking at 1964 dedication program]
MS:
That's the program for the dedication of the school. There's a newspaper article on... on that dedication.
[pause] That's the sit-in. It's been a very curious thing for, for us too. I don't know if Charles or Ursel3 told
you, we're planning on kind of using the information we get from you guys to maybe make an exhibit that
3
Ursel Brown, Eva Thomas High School, Class of 1970
- 20 -
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�our students can see. Not just about the sit-ins, but about the whole experience of schools... you know, it
tells a great story, and a student is going to learn something about, you know, our history during the 60s. It
was the Civil Rights Era. What better history than the one that happened right here? So that's kind of
where, where we're going with this. And that's why this sit-in does factor in largely to that part of the
school's history. But yeah, it's an interesting one, it's interesting that you mentioned about how they built a
school so that you wouldn't have to pass what was what, College Park High...
BD:
They could say urban renewal all they want, but I know...
MS:
Yeah. Separate and equal.
BD:
It was just a thing to... not even equal.
MS:
Not even. So, there are a couple of people I've talked to who have told me that they remember looking at
textbooks and they were older, and they had a stamp from another school on them. So that's...
BD:
They'd get passed down.
MS:
Yeah.
BD:
And we'd have to treat them lightly as if they're brand new and made out of delicate silk, you know. We'd
wrap newspaper around the binding in the backs to make book covers out of them. You know, newspaper.
MS:
Yeah. Did you have a favorite subject back then... besides music?
BD:
I don't know. I liked history, I guess.
MS:
Yeah, for sure. Well, I don't really have many more questions, but thank you for sharing. I appreciate it.
- 21 -
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�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Description
An account of the resource
Oral Histories collected from alumni, students, teachers and staff of the Fulton County School System, 1980s-present.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Fulton County Schools Archives, Hapeville, Ga
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Michael Santrock
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Bruce Dunlap
Location
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Fulton County Schools Archives, Teaching Museum South, Hapeville, Georgia
Duration
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41:18
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Oral History (transcript), Bruce Dunlap, December 12, 2021
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--Fulton County
College Park
East Point
South Fulton High School
Eva Thomas High School
segregation
urban renewal
Description
An account of the resource
Bruce Dunlap is a native of College Park, Georgia and a graduate of Eva Thomas High School, Class of 1967. He began his education at Jefferson Franklin Beavers Elementary School and moved to South Fulton High School in East Point before Eva Thomas was completed in 1964. Dunlap would eventually attend Clark College (Atlanta, GA) on a music scholarship. He also served in the army and was deployed overseas. Dunlap’s wife, Sylvia Dunlap (Eva Thomas, Class of 1970) was also present during the interview.
A video recording of this oral history will be made available soon.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Fulton County Schools Archives
Mike Santrock
Bruce Dunlap
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Fulton County Schools Archives, Hapeville, Ga
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2021
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a><br />Direct questions regarding use to archives@fultonschools.org
Format
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Document-Transcript, 21 pages
Video recording (currently unavailable), 41:18
Identifier
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2021.ohfc.2
Clark (College) University
Eva Thomas High School
Jefferson Franklin Beavers Elementary School
segregation
South Fulton High School
-
https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/40118/archive/files/75248b6d7a046ac257240252eeed0cf5.pdf?Expires=1712793600&Signature=cRyzN0sdc24JBOfjmCA91SKS0%7E2i83xQjRBp3CCffUhtUXCLCCZpIwyt9B%7EEFo3Dw5Q5jq%7ESC9TmSPrOYEVURoeX%7EI8lkWksia0Zvj6ElZ47-IY9WAVShFaQwKxGWGu5S3QXP1KsDsolln2e0%7EvCEm0L8i8c9Lz55HQMLWRurgk1OgRuJ-v1a2coaSY9%7En5jNIxTEYixY5bt75qWnAJzckBh4YGBdDO4qi5jkfvCoapJ0HY5nloQQiGDHaSjZabTo9CnLa%7EIMF%7E3m-r1TkSq12nBueL2CKNPU3ewgtrDUlao-4UhD7CSNTNQGX1HOqnEgY08hzk1hfud4glOD417SQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM
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PDF Text
Text
Brenda Smith
November 30, 2021, 1 pm
Fulton County Schools Archives, Teaching Museum South, Hapeville, Georgia
Brenda Smith is a native of College Park, Georgia, having grown up there in the 1950s and 60s. She attended
Jefferson Franklin Beavers Elementary School, South Fulton High School (8th and 9th grades) and Eva Thomas
High School (10th-12th), where she graduated in 1967 – a member of the second graduating class from that
school. After high school, Smith pursued a degree in Psychology at Spelman College and subsequently, worked
in the entertainment industry for 37 years.
Michael Santrock:
So, what do you have?
Brenda Smith:
I have an article. I don't, it doesn't have the year on it. But this is me. And Gary Greer and Raymond Pugh.
We were given a citation from the mayor for a stop smoking campaign trying to get teenagers not to smoke.
And we ran it for a year. This is our first year at Eva Thomas. And I was 11th grade, and they were 10th
grade.
MS:
You don't remember the year exactly.
BS:
Okay, so if I graduated in '67, then that was '66…
MS:
So, you did graduate from Eva Thomas?
BS:
Yes.
MS:
In ‘67.
BS:
Yes. I was in the second class, the second graduating class. And oddly enough, I don't know if anyone has
shared this with you. But the first graduating class of Eva Thomas never wanted to be recognized as that.
They always joined with their South Fulton classmates. Yeah, because they actually spent more years at
South Fulton than they did at Eva Thomas, but ours was, my class was kind of even. We were two years at
South Fulton, eighth and ninth grade. And then 10th, 11th and 12th. We transferred to the new school.
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�MS:
And of course, South Fulton was all the way to first grade, right? Wasn't it?
BS:
Well, not when, not when we were there. That was during my parents’ time. When South Fulton was like
the school, yeah. Yeah, but we had elementary schools put in in College Park. First there was Beavers.
Jefferson Franklin Beavers. And then it started to I guess, overflow or had, you know so many kids. They set
up Avery.
MS:
Sophie Avery.
BS:
Yeah, yeah. And then they even put a third one. I can't even remember what it was. But
MS:
and that this third one would have been for Black students only at the time to or it would...
BS:
No, I think it was at the beginning of integration.
MS:
Got it.
BS:
Yeah, it was over on Herschel Road, by the way I can't remember was the name of that school was. But
anyway, I mean, they took the whole building down and everything. Well, just like Avery and Beavers, you
know, all of the actual buildings are gone. And it was too far out of I wasn't in that district. That was, and I
wasn't even in elementary school, or anything. Then when they put it up, I was already graduated and out.
[laughs]
MS:
Right? Oh, yeah. Graduating of 67. That's really when they started...
BS:
This is the news article that I wrote for the Atlanta Daily World. Portia Scott was the daughter of Mr. Scott,
on the board back there. She was our advisor, the teenage advisor, for all of us who wrote. But that was one
of the articles and...
MS:
This is relation to Coretta.
BS:
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�No. The family of the Atlanta Daily World.
MS:
Right. Right, right. I'm sorry. No, no, Scott.
BS:
Oh, no, I think I think Miss Coretta was from Connecticut. She was from somewhere up north.
MS:
Sure.
BS:
Um huh. That was just like a day in the life of the school.
MS:
Would you mind before you left if we copied these?
BS:
Oh, no, yeah. That's why I brought it. I thought I thought, you know, that was great. And this one was really
great. And this one is an article. And I guess we'd have to give credit as far as this person, Larry Smith, who
was my cousin. Oh, he graduated from South Fulton. But he was one of the first people who went to the war
from our, from College Park. He went to Vietnam. And he wrote this and sent it back. He, he got to be a
pretty big officer in the Marines. I know he was a corporal for a long time. But when he came out of the
Marines, I think he was a sergeant. So...
MS:
My father was in Danang, a year later.
BS:
Wow. Yeah, that was that was a pretty, it kind of ravished our little area. You know, it just took all the
available guys away.
MS:
Yeah. The draft?
BS:
Yeah. The draft. Yeah. Yeah.
MS:
That's interesting.
BS:
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�And so, it was very interesting that the Atlanta Daily World did a did this article on him. He actually sent it
back kind of letting people know that they were all right.
MS:
Yeah. And he talks about why he's fighting. It's cool... Is Larry is your cousin? You said your first cousin?
BS:
Uh huh, he was my cousin. He's passed on since now.
MS:
Great. We'd love to have a copy.
BS:
Okay, cool. I thought it would be good to, to bring that. My mother had all of these things in a photo album.
MS:
Right. Most people do that or did that… and the newsletter?
BS:
This is from one of the churches in the area. A church, a Methodist Church. That was Laster's Chapel. They
told me that Mrs. Dudley, Emma Dudley has come over. Well, this was her church.
MS:
She mentioned it.
BS:
Did she?
MS:
I'm pretty sure,
BS:
Yes. And they had a great youth program that children from other churches participated. And so, I thought
that this was just a good representation of the College Park area. Yeah. Knowing that the kids got more than
the education from the schools. They were educated in terms, in the churches as well.
MS:
I'm glad you said that. Because that's a theme that's come out in everything that I've learned from, from the
Dudley's...
BS:
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�Oh, her husband came with her? He was our teacher, too. Yeah. Before they were married. They were our
teachers in high school.
MS:
We recorded their story and how they met at the.... but I've, even when it came down to and I'm sure you're
familiar with the, the integration and Eva Thomas, the sit ins and stuff. The church was a place like a kind of
a headquarters. And not, not Lasters, so much as it was Friendship,
BS:
Friendship. That was my church.
MS:
Was that your church?
BS:
Yes.
MS:
So yeah, so I've kind of gotten, I've gotten that kind of that side of things. It was very much that church slash
school education...
BS:
That would mean someone talked to you about Miss Lottie Miller. Yeah, because she was kind of like, the
community savior. She was kind of like the community activist that made sure that we didn't hold our
heads down. All the children, not just her children. She was that way about; she was that way about College
Park. Just wanted us to be proud of where we came from.
MS:
Great. Yeah. Well, so um, thank you for these kind of, we'll make copies before you leave. And I do kind of
the way we've been doing this as kind of like we're doing now is kind of a conversation. And I don't want to
stop if you want to share anything that I don't ask about. Please feel free to.
BS:
Okay.
MS:
There are some topics that we'd like to introduce and talk about. And so, you know, I'll get to those. But I
don't want you to feel like we have any kind of structure just because I have a sheet with questions on it.
But the first thing I've been really getting everybody who's come in to talk about is their, their, their early
childhood, where you're from, tell me about your family when you were a child, your parents, siblings, and
where you were.
BS:
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�Oh, wow. Well, we grew up in College Park. Yeah, we grew up in College Park. My mom and dad grew up in
College Park, as well. My dad, and I could have brought some pictures of them when they were young. And
we were just kids and they would carry us along to wherever. We finally got a car, then they didn't have to
make sure that we would pair, walking along with them. But we used to be a very close-knit family. My dad
was an only child of us in a single parent household. So, he didn't want his children to experience that. He
wanted the nucleus of the family to always be together. So, I had three brothers and me. Right. And I was
very well protected in the town.
MS:
Where were you in line? Were you oldest? youngest?
BS:
I was the second oldest. My brother. I have one big brother. And then me and then two, knuckleheads.
Right. [laughs]
MS:
That’s okay, I have two knuckleheads too.
BS:
But yeah, so I had to, I had to be a big sister a lot. But that was good, too. You know, that was a good thing
because my big brother taught me how to be the older sibling. He taught me how to care for them and look
out for them and stuff because he always looked out for me. Um, let's see. What else about us.
MS:
What did your father do for a living? Your mom too.
BS:
He, he in the, in the early years. As far back as I can remember, he worked in construction. He worked for a
man in College Park, Mr. Holly; and Mr. Holly's business was plastering the insides of houses and buildings.
And so, he taught my dad from a young man how to do that. And after he stopped, retired, I guess that's
what you would say now, but he just stopped working. He got old and did, so my dad did it. And my dad had
a crew of guys who looked up to him as a boss. And they'd get on my dad's truck and go and plaster houses
for people. My dad took his team, his group of guys, and they worked for Mr. Herndon and put, in doing
insides of houses in Atlanta and everything. So, he did that until plastering kind of went its own way, when
sheet rock became the material that everybody wanted to use. And so, he had to start eventually letting
people go, and then he was just doing little small plastering jobs himself, which wasn't paying the bills until
he got a job at a warehouse. I don't know if you've ever heard of a grocery store chain called Big Apple.
MS:
Nope.
BS:
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
�But that was a southern grocery store chain. And they had their warehouse in the West End. And so he got a
job there working on the docks at that warehouse. And he eventually became the warehouse manager from
over years of, you know, working there. I think he worked there like 40 years.
MS:
Oh, wow.
BS:
And retired from there.
MS:
So, he started working, he stopped doing plaster and started working there. You were, how old? Were you
out of the house already? Or were you young?
BS:
I was young. But he retired. He was well, I mean, he was still working there when I left to go to college, and
then never came back. [laughs] He was, he was there for like I say, I think it was 40 years. So, when I was
working, after I started working, he was, he was there. He retired from there. And then he got a job at Sears
after he retired from there. And then he worked at Sears for a little while. Then he got a job at the Atlanta
Auto Auction. And he worked there 17 years.
MS:
Renaissance man.
BS:
Yes. And then he retired from there. He just had to work. He was a, he was a working man. He wasn't a sit
down and be retired kind of guy.
MS:
So did your… did your mother work when you were young too?
BS:
My mother didn't work when I was very young. But she did work. She started working when I was like,
third or fourth grade, or something. Our house, like I said was Ross Avenue. I don't know if you caught that
when I was coming down the hall.
MS:
Yes.
BS:
Ross Avenue was kind of I don't know, it was almost the center of the community. But it was we lived on
the hill on Ross Avenue. Down the hill to the left was Jefferson Franklin Beavers Elementary School. So, we
all walk to school every day. And then when they built the new high school, Eva L. Thomas was down the
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
�hill to the right. And we walked to high school so but for those two years that we went to South Fulton we
had to ride the bus. We had to ride the bus.
MS:
Because that was all the way in East Point.
BS:
Yes, it was in East Point. And there were a few bus stops, one of which was Ross Avenue. And my brother
and I went there. Now my brother, my big brother graduated. South Fulton. He was a full two years ahead
of me. So, he graduated before Thomas...
MS:
Before Eva Thomas was built.
BS:
Yes.
MS:
So, for our researchers who may be listening to this recording, South Fulton High School was the, and you
can correct me if I'm wrong. It was the only high school for Black children in the south...
BS:
...in the South Fulton area, which included Hapeville, College Park, Fairburn, Red Oak, East Point, Union
City; it was like seven cities that all had to bus their kids to South Fulton, that was something, huh. [laughs]
MS:
We do know stories I've learned from in here. At the same time, South Fulton was the school for the south
part of the county, there was a school called Bailey-Johnson up in Alpharetta. And before that was built, and
you can I don't know if you know anything about this history, that children, Black children had to actually
go into Atlanta to Booker T. Washington.
BS:
Yes.
MS:
To go to high school, if they wanted a high school education...
BS:
Exactly. and they had to find their way there. So, my mom and dad were in that era.
MS:
So, your parents were both from College Park as well?
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�BS:
Yes.
MS:
Ok.
BS:
They were born and raised in College Park. My dad's mom, who raised him, was the fourth of 11 children.
And all of her siblings helped her to raise my dad. Yeah.
MS:
It takes a village.
BS:
...takes a village. It really does. Really does. Yeah. So, my mom though, on the other hand, my mom was a
child of a sibling in a family of not 8, 8 boys and girls. And her, her mother. Well, her father died when she
was very, very young. And her mother couldn't raise out the children. And so, she and a couple of her other
siblings were set to live in. I don't want to say an orphanage. But it was a home called Carry Steele Pitts.
MS:
Oh, yeah, I've heard of Carry Steele. I don't know where I've heard of that.
BS:
It still exists in a way but not like it was then. It was just to assist families who couldn't handle all their
children, who couldn't give them a proper home. So, she was there for a few years or her teenage years,
until my dad decided she should come back. And literally, he went there and got her and married her. She
was like, 17. Yeah.
MS:
The rest as they said they say, is history.
BS:
...is history. Yeah. And they were married for 63, 64 years? They both have passed now. But, but yeah, they
were married for like 60 some odd years.
MS:
So, for most of your, your childhood, then you would have had six members in the household, or did you
have other family that lived with you? And I'm speaking your parents.
BS:
...and my brothers and me,
MS:
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�Your brothers and you?
BS:
Yes.
MS:
So, it was most the time it was six people in the house?
BS:
Yes. Yes.
MS:
So um, obviously, we kind of, we archive the history of the school system and people whose you know,
alumni of our school system. So, I'm going to, now at this point, kind of talk about JF Beavers Elementary,
because we find we found that to be kind of a fascinating story. And as far as Jefferson Beavers himself,
being a postal worker and a community... I don't know how you say it; just a, an educated... supporter of
education, right in that community.
BS:
He was a very, we used to call him a very dignified man.
MS:
Did you meet him?
BS:
I did not. I met his two sisters.
MS:
One of them wrote a biography... of him.1
BS:
Oh, wonderful. I didn't know that. I didn't know that.
MS:
That's where I learned what I learned about him.
BS:
But they were dignified, they were the kind of people that made you want to be better; that made you want
to learn and see the world and not just be trapped within Harvard Avenue and Princeton Avenue, you
know, but to know something. They were the ones who, his sisters, were the ones who started this civic and
Correction: Beavers’ daughter, Lillian Lydia B. Garnett, wrote Tower of Strength: A Biography of Jefferson Franklin
Beavers (1975)
1
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�education league in College Park, which raised money to help kids who wanted to go to college have
scholarships.
MS:
I see.
BS:
Yeah. So, they were great. His sisters were great. And I guess he was pretty great, too. You know...
MS:
...just from what I've read, but yeah. When you were you were young and going there, did you have a sense
of who he was then, when you were young as a student there?
BS:
Yes. We all had to have, we had, you know, different... I would say... not so much as courses from a book. But
we all had to learn certain things about where we were from and what the significance was. And so, Mr.
Beavers was a big part of that. We didn't have Black History Month. We had a teacher, Mrs. Benson. I don't
know if anybody... Benton, Benton. I don't know if anybody knows about her the first. But she became the
principal of Jefferson Franklin Beavers when I was there. And she made sure that we learned about the the
different, you know, people in the community who stood out, who were good, what they called good people
in the community. And so, we learned about Mr. Beavers from there. And we learned about how he wanted
all children... And I don't think he had any children, did he?
MS:
When… did… you told me about his sisters a second ago? Right? Okay. He had two daughters.
BS:
Okay. Yeah. Okay.
MS:
So, um, that I was mistaken. It was one of the daughters that wrote...
BS:
...that wrote the history of him. Okay.
MS:
We have a photograph of them, when they're presenting. I don't know if you recall a portrait being, a
portrait of him.
BS:
In the school? Yes.
MS:
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�It's here.
BS:
Oh, wow.
MS:
I'll show it to you. In the hallway. We also have a picture of, of his daughters when they were dedicating the
school.
BS:
Okay. Oh, wow.
MS:
So, he did two daughters. I can't remember their names right now.
BS:
Okay. But, yeah, he was he was one of the ones that we always kind of, I don't know, say paid reverence to.
But, you know, we always gave the respect of having something, I can't remember his birthday. But we used
to do an assembly. We called it an assembly, where all of the grades got together in the auditorium. And at
one of those... his... you know, it could have been, it could have been his daughter that came to the assembly
and spoke.
MS:
...and spoke?
BS:
Yes. And spoke to us. I'm thinking it really could have been his daughter, because she was older than we
were, a lot older than we were, but I thought she was... I don't know, I thought it was his sisters. But I think
they were members of Mount Zion.
MS:
That's the other church?
BS:
Yes, yes. But still, we had all of these churches were on Harvard Avenue. And so, we had to learn also about
why all of the, we were called College Park.
MS:
Right.
BS:
And then we started to realize after a while, when you go through the, the actual walk of the city, 90% of
the streets were named after universities. And it was, it was something interesting to learn about those
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�schools, you know, and what they meant; and what they were all about. And, you know, we had a college of
sorts, in College Park. Cox college.
MS:
It was a female college.
BS:
Well, I think it started out as like a religious college and then it was probably female, but there towards the
end before they shut it down. It was, what do you call it? Coed. Yeah.
MS:
Do you? Do you remember? So you remember the college? Do you remember where it was?
BS:
It was over...
MS:
What's there now, i guess...
BS:
Some houses or something, but it was over near where College Park High School was over in that area.
MS:
Oh, okay.
BS:
Off of Main Street. And...
MS:
...what's McClarin now for people who don't know... Yes. McClarin. I assume now. Oh, College Street. Yeah. It
was over there. Of course. Where else do you put a college?
BS:
[laughs] But I was trying to think of the name of the street. Okay. College Street. Yeah.
MS:
You've, you've mentioned just a minute ago that... I think you said Miss Benton didn't want or it may have
been Beavers... she said didn't want young people to think of themselves as confined to between Harvard
and Princeton. Was that the Black neighborhood of College Park? Or was there? It was a divided town?
BS:
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�Yes, it was very divided. And Rugby Avenue...Rugby Avenue was the beginning of white College Park, as we
called it. Atlanta Avenue and all the streets that ran right up to Rugby, were, that was the Black community.
And then going down Harvard... no, Princeton, Harvard, Columbia. Think about those universities.
MS:
Right.
BS:
That was, those were the main thoroughfares that ran through the Black community. And Main Street was
the dividing line. Because they were all businesses on Main Street, and then the railroad track and then the
other side of town. Yeah.
MS:
What do you remember fondly about living in College Park back? I guess this would have been the 1950s or
early, late 50s. When you were at JF Beavers, maybe early 60s.
BS:
I think that the best parts of College Park were kind of centered around Mr. Wayman and Miss Bessie
Brady.
MS:
The Brady's Gym?
BS:
Yes.
MS:
I've heard all about Brady's Gym.
BS:
Mr. Wayman, it was just... ah, goodness. To me, he was like Mr. Beavers was to my mom and dad's era. Mr.
Wayman cared about all the children. I mean, every single one. They had two boys, but oh, my goodness,
they just cared about all the children. And we used to be denied going up the hill, to the recreation center in
College Park. And so, he petitioned for us to have our own, our own gym in our own neighborhood, and got
it. And we were like, “What? We're going to have our own place to play basketball? and our own swings?”
And he was just great. He was great.
MS:
Did he own it?
BS:
So no, the city owned it? Yeah, the city on did he actually worked for the city of College Park. But he
managed that gym until he passed away. And his wife, man, she stayed there. I mean, they stayed there,
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�they did it. They had camp in the summertime. So, we always had someplace to go and something to learn
and something to do and to keep our bodies in good shape and our minds and to give us something to do
instead of just being in the street. And I think that anybody who grew up in College Park would have to say
that Brady's Gym; and they didn't call it Brady's Gym in the beginning; they eventually named it that
because that's what we continued to call it. We called it Brady's Gym.
MS:
Kind of spoke it into being.
BS:
Yeah, right. Yeah. And so, it was like recreation department number something or whatever. But we just
called it Brady's Gym until, you know that's what they finally put on it; and they have signs now with... that
direct you to Brady's Gym and it's still there. And his, his nephew ended up running it. One of my
classmates ended up coming back home from college and everything and running it after they retired and
then after they passed.
MS:
What were the kinds of things, I mean obviously, you think of, when you think of gym you think of athletics
maybe volleyball, basketball or what have you.
BS:
Oh, yeah, there was all of that.
MS:
Was there, did you all do other things there? You had a camp there? Was it mostly sports?
BS:
Oh no, we had a camp where we learned how to do arts and crafts. We had a little choir where we learned
songs. We were just singing one of those songs the other day at Thanksgiving. Me and my brother and his
children and grandchildren. And they were like, "What?" Like, okay, you don't understand anyway. [laughs]
It was funny...
MS:
I find myself doing that a lot lately.
BS:
Yes. Thinking about, you know, things that you grew up with. So that was one of the things we did that and
we get on buses and take field trips. And, you know, we go to other places in Atlanta. We, like we went to
Etowah Mounds. I think that's in Macon. And we went to, what’s the Indian Reservation up near Rome, not
quite to Rome... maybe it's Cartersville.
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�MS:
It's Cartersville. I think the one in Macon, is that Ocmulgee?
BS:
Oh, yes.
MS:
Etowah is the one near Canton...
BS:
Okay. That's the one we went up there. We went up there several times. Miss Bessie, with you know, we
had to get permission slips from our parents and the whole nine yards. But we would pack our little
sandwiches, and then we get on the bus that the city would provide, for us to get on the bus to go. And we
would go on field trips and learn stuff. I mean, it was not just the fun. I mean, well, that was should have
been fun. But I'm saying it wasn't just a recreation, playing sports, it was a place of education for us to learn
about those things, to learn about the Indians, to learn about other ways of life. So, Brady's Gym was a very
focal point. And then after I became a teenager, he was successful in getting a swimming pool added. Wow.
We all learn to swim back there.
MS:
How did he have so much? That couple have so much power and ability to organize and have this stuff
come to be?
BS:
You know, that would really be a good question. I just don't know. But he just didn't take no for an answer.
MS:
I guess not.
BS:
He just didn't take no for an answer. He always fought for the kids, for us to get more equipment for us to
be able to have basketballs that had, would hold the air instead of the flat ones that wouldn't hardly bounce.
And we had those at first. It was like we got the cast-off equipment. But he would, you know, he just kept
pushing for us to get new equipment. And he was just he was great like that. And, and his wife too, Miss
Bessie. I mean, she was great. And she pushed for equipment in different ways. She pushed for arts and
crafts materials for us to work with, for us to know about textiles and know about how to loop a rug. And to
know, we've done all that stuff. And I mean, she was great. And then her sister, Miss Carrie O'Neal was the
one who got us into singing. She was, she could have been an opera star, I think. But she only sang in church
and with us. But you know, they were just great. It was a really great family. And Mr., Mr. Brady's brother,
he had one brother, and they were all kind of entrepreneurial. His brother owned the first dry cleaners for
us to go to in College Park. So, we didn't have to take our things up the hill. You know? And I say up the hill,
because once you go down Harvard or Princeton, it's kind of a slope. And we used always refer to it as
going up the hill, up Harvard hill, up. That was just went up then we see…
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�MS:
When I think of the times that I've been to College Park... so I'm assuming you're speaking of that, where,
where there's Main Street and it kind of goes down to where College Park Elementary is now. Is that, is that
the hill you're talking about?
BS:
Yes. That's Princeton. Yeah, that's going... yeah, that's exactly. And it doesn't seem like so much of a hill now
that you're, you know, you're grown but then it was, it was, and it was a big separation that doesn't even
seem to exist now. But going up that hill was something that we rarely did. We had our own doctor, Dr. Otis
McCree, who was an extremely educated man, who could have been a doctor in a big hospital anywhere.
But he set up his office in College Park on Harvard Avenue, so that all of the residents there would have
medical care. And he had a nurse, nurse Gentry, who was just absolutely wonderful. She convinced us that
we should not be afraid to go to the dentist, you know, because that wasn't something that we did. It wasn't,
you know, for the most part in the Black community. Kids didn't go to the dentist. And then after a while,
they started sending the health mobile down into the neighborhood. And it would be to get booster shots...
and who wanted to do that? [laughs] Every now and then, the dentist would be on the mobile. You'd get
your teeth checked. But if any major work had to be done, you had to go to his office, which was in Atlanta.
MS:
Which was quite a trek back then I guess.
BS:
Oh, my lord.
MS:
How'd you get there? Bus?
BS:
Bus, yeah.
MS:
Well, so when you were young, and you were at JF beavers, were there any... What were you thinking?
You're thinking this, I want to be this one day. I mean, because it seems like every kid, you know, when
there's it's like... the younger ones have the dream. And then with the teenagers like, I don't know. Yeah,
what did you want to do?
BS:
What did I want to do? When I was at... Well, I thought I was going to be an excellent French horn player
and play in the symphony one day, but that didn't happen. [laughs]
MS:
Still have your French horn?
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�BS:
No. It was uh, it was school property.
MS:
Oh, gotcha.
BS:
But that was so much fun. Mr.
MS:
Was this at Beavers or South Fulton?
BS:
This was at Beavers.
MS:
So you had you did have instruments?
BS:
Yes. We had instruments. And Mr. James Patterson was our band director. And he's now at Clark Atlanta
University. But he was right there at JF Beavers. And I thought I wanted to play trumpet, because that was
just you know, that was what my brother played. So, my big brother played trumpet. And that's what I
wanted to play. But I didn't have the proper embouchure. And I learned that word from Mr. Patterson.
Yeah. And so, he was like, "No, you don't have the right embouchure for the trumpet." My lips were too big.
I found out what that meant later. But anyway, I’m glad, I didn't know what it meant. Sitting here nodding.
Oh, I'm so glad, because I didn't know, and I had to find out. But I was perfect for the French horn. And that
was great. And so, I learned to love the French horn.
MS:
Sounds like you're a musical family. Then if your brother played instruments, too.
BS:
Yeah, he did. And, and my youngest brother played drums, though, we should have had a band.
MS:
So, Beavers had a band? Did you all perform programs?
BS:
Yes, we performed like... Oh, yes. We had Christmas concerts. And we had May Day. May Day was a festival
type thing.
MS:
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�What did that mean? So, I've seen a lot of pictures of Mayday programs where the maypole one of them is in
front of Avery Elementary.
BS:
Oh wow. I'm probably in that picture. But we had, or was it in the in front of the extension of Beavers?
MS:
Now this one, you can see, you can see the school. I'm wondering if the pictures up here.
BS:
Okay, but if it was in front of Avery, then I wouldn't have been over there. But we, we learned the history of
the maypole and that it came from Austria, I believe? And it was a celebration of springtime and the
blossoms and all of that and when the snow was starting to melt, so we didn't know anything about snow
melting. So, it had to have been from someplace. Yeah, but it was just a fun time that we all look forward to
and you want it to be, if you wanted to be the little princess then you had to sell raffle tickets to raise money
and, you know all that, and it was just a fun time. Yeah.
MS:
One thing I want to ask you, is it. So obviously you're going to school. Schools are very segregated. I mean,
we can take that just from there being Black and white schools. Do you remember when you were a child,
when you came to realize, hey, you know, there's differences and how that may have affected or impacted
you?
BS:
Oh, sure. And that was really very early on, because I'm in, in fourth... fourth grade, maybe? We had a
teacher at Beavers, Miss Hattie Ruth Chandler. And she was, oh, God bless her soul. She was extremely
stern. If that's the word strict; maybe mean, but not mean. [laughs] But she was the kind of person who
always pointed us out, away from our circumstances. She always pointed out the world to us. She always
told us that there was something more out there. She was one of the ones who organized trips, when we
were in the... when I was in the fourth grade, I went to Washington DC. We had trips, to go to the Capitol,
and stay and visit the monuments and all of that. Yes, we definitely knew the differences. And we knew that
there were some things that we were being denied. But it wasn't... she didn't do it with malice of intent, or,
or hatred. She created a desire in us to want to see more and do more and be more and, and she was a
component of the fact that if we put our best foot forward, that we wouldn't be denied. That it was going to
happen. And she knew that even before, you know, integration actually took place. I don't know what it was
about her. But she was great in that respect. And we would do things like... they would take us to the
Atlanta Symphony, once a year. Those people in the band or the chorus, we would go and do things like
that. So, we always knew that there was more and that we were going to be a part of it; we were going to be
incorporated into the bigger world. And so, it was not... and you know what, and it just seems like there
would have been resentment or, or... I don't know, a festering of ill will. But there wasn't, you know. This
was our school. This was our place. We were privileged to have the things that we had, and we were going
to be allowed to have more. And that's the way she made us feel all the time. Yeah.
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�MS:
It's harsh, but inspired, I guess a little.
BS:
Yeah, yeah. And in other words, don't show your butt. Don't act up. Don't do these things, because you're
representing, you know, a people that have been working and struggling hard to get to this point. And
you're on your way to something else, and don't mess it up when you get there. That was the kind of
attitude, yeah.
MS:
So, you’re, once you're finished at Beavers Elementary, you move on to South Fulton at this point, you're in
eighth grade?
BS:
Eighth grade, uh huh.
MS:
So, what's... what's it like your first day at South Fulton? What stands out all these years later? What stands
out?
BS:
Oh, the big girls who were mean, mean. They didn't want us to do anything and kept telling us that, "You're
just a, you're just a freshman and you..." but, you know...
MS:
Did they call you sub freshmen?
BS:
You know, they just you know, they didn't... they didn't welcome us. You know, we were like we didn't
count. So, I think that's the way what all kids. And that might even be the reason that they broke out and did
middle schools, you know? Because that straight from elementary to high school was harsh. And that's all
Black, Black and white or whoever. That's just a kind of a territorial thing more than anything. But I ended
up feeling a little bit more welcomed at South Fulton and started to make friends.
MS:
Is it because your brother was already there was...
BS:
Probably.
MS:
Makes a difference.
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�BS:
Yeah, probably because he was... goodness. Oh, my goodness, he was something else. He was one of those
brainiac type people and all the teachers loved him. And so, they would look at look out for me like so,
"What do you know?" [laughs] So? "Can you do this math problem? Your brother could." Give me a break,
you know.
MS:
"Why can't you be more like..."
BS:
I know, why can't you... Do you know how many times I heard that statement?
MS:
I know because, I have an older brother.
BS:
Oh, wow. And why can't you be more like him? Mike, shame on you. But South Fulton became a whole new
area for me because it was high school. And we were exposed to so much more. And the basketball team got
on the bus and went up and down the state and all the way down to you know, the bottom of the state and
to the top of the state. And we were champs, and we were, you know, always everything. And so that's
when I decided that I wanted to write and cover things. And...
MS:
Sports actually kind of inspired you to want to write about it, or is it?
BS:
Yes, yes. And then I got interested in radio, because at that time when I was in ninth grade, in Atlanta, there
was a radio station. WAOK. It was AM, you know, didn't have FM radio stations. With Black music on it.
There were FM radio stations. But I started getting interested in that because they had a teen show on
WAOK at... on Saturdays, but you had to get there. You had to get downtown. And nobody from South
Fulton, you know, was interested in going to represent us. I was like, "Wait a minute. We need to be there.
We need to be on the radio too," just like Washington and Carver and Price and Turner. You know, I said
we're schooling, we're winning basketball games. So, I ended up going down and volunteering for that. And
there wasn't any pay or anything. And you had to get your own bus tokens and everything, transfer.
Because you had to get off one bus and get on another one. I had to learn all that. So, I had to learn big
Atlanta. But that was great. And then you know, I got the bug. I ended up in the entertainment industry for
37 years.
MS:
What did you do in the entertainment industry?
BS:
I managed artists, singers and bands.
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�MS:
Care to name any?
BS:
Well, goodness who? I started out my very first job was with Mr. James Brown
MS:
No way
BS:
Yeah, I was I met his manager, his actual personal manager at WAOK. And I used to get tickets to the
concerts and stuff. And then when I'd get back on the next weekend and talk about the concert where I was
and everybody was saying, "Wow, you were there? You were there?" And it just kind of got me in a real
thing for that. But I did put it aside, went to college and blah, blah, blah. And then it came back around that I
met the guy who ran the radio station when I was a kid.
MS:
WAOK?
BS:
WAOK. And he had become the general manager of the radio station. And just... you know, it was a good
meeting, blah, blah blah, but all said and done, he introduced me to Mr. Brown's then promotions and
marketing manager. And they were like, "You know, you talk so much, you'd probably be a real good...
[laughs] promotions person." I was like, "I don't think so." Anyway, long story short, I was. And I became
that, and they moved me from Atlanta, to Charlotte, North Carolina. And I lived there for 13 years. And then
I met another guy at another record label: Warner Brothers. Mr. Brown was at Polygram... and Polygram
moved me, Polly door[?], moved me from Atlanta to North Carolina, and then Warner Brothers moved me,
hired me and moved me back from Charlotte, North Carolina back to Atlanta. So, I came back home.
MS:
So, it all started with South Fulton... WAOK...
BS:
South Fulton Lions at WAOK. Yeah.
MS:
Speaking of… this is before your time. This is their 1958 yearbook.
BS:
Oh, wow. There’s the school. There's the gym. Oh, look. Oh, nice.
MS:
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�It's, oh, here's the gym. Here's another picture. Inside the gym. I don't know what year it is.
BS:
Oh, wow.
MS:
Have you heard of the Rosenwald Schools? Have you heard that term before?
BS:
No.
MS:
Okay. It was Booker T. Washington kind of teamed up with a Sears and Roebuck magnate back in the early
1900s. And his name was Julius Rosenwald. And his idea was to provide funds for communities to build
their own schools or provide funds to school systems to help build schools for both Black children or rural
children that might not have good schools, right? That would be in the one room kind of shack. Anyway...
BS:
Rosenwald.
MS:
Rosenwald. So, this Rosenwald Fund helped start South Fulton back when it was first built. Right. It was
actually called East Point School at one point, and it was built using Rosenwald money. But anyway, I didn't
know if you had a sense of that kind of history of that school. I think it had changed a lot by the time you
went there, because you said, you told us it was just it was a high school by the time you were there. It was
not an elementary.
BS:
Right. It was only high school eighth through 12th. And...
MS:
Was McClarin the principal when you were there?
BS:
Yes.
MS:
Tell me about Frank McClarin.
BS:
He was a big man. [laughs] He was a big man. And he walked down the halls with such intensity. He was a
proponent, a proponent of us going to higher levels, even within the high school realm. He wanted us to
participate in the national science achievement programs and see if we could get you know, certificates and
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�things in that. And the national math... and the Who's Who... first time I ever heard of Who's Who in
America for high school kids was from Mr. Frank McClarin. He wanted to be sure that we had... he wanted
us to have a great education. He was just so I know, he was he had it... he was an imposing figure. You know,
when you saw him, you just shut up. And for me, that's a big… [laughs] That was a big thing. He was a... but I
think he was a pretty good teacher. And I mean, you know, administrator and our assistant principal there
at South Fulton, Mr. Gilbert, ended up coming to Eva Thomas. Yes, to be principal.
MS:
Well, that's a great. That's a great segue, because let's talk about Eva Thomas. And I do want to, you've been
here about an hour, and I want to be respectful of your time. If you have a few more minutes, I would like to
ask you about Eva Thomas.
BS:
Oh, yes, I would. I do.
MS:
So how old were you when you moved to Eva Thomas? Or what grade were you in, I guess.
BS:
Tenth grade. And at the we were, there was an 11th grade class and a 10th grade class, there was no senior
class. The seniors, they did not force them to leave South Fulton. So, they stayed to graduate from South
Fulton. So, I was in the 10th. And then the class ahead of me was the 11th. But we did not have a senior
class the first year. So, we had a graduating class the very next year for, you know, our juniors. So, I guess I
was what 16? Yeah.
MS:
Do you remember when they were building the school?
BS:
Do I?
MS:
Do you?
BS:
Yeah.
MS:
Tell me about that.
BS:
It was somewhat heartbreaking to me that they moved out people that, you know, we knew that we'd grew
up with, a lady that used to fix my hair. You know, and her home had always been right there at the bottom
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�of Ross Street. But they moved her out, and they moved all of those people out along... the street to clear out
that whole area to build the school. And I hate to say that, I mean, you know, that's progress, I guess. But it
just kind of changed the community. It was the beginning of the change of our little nucleus world that was
called College Park. For us that was called College Park for us... historic College Park for the Blacks, which is
not the historic College Park that the signs talk about now, you know. But yes, I remember. And they built it
so quickly. I remember when the law took place, and segregation was banned. And the law was specifically
stated that a child could not go past a school in their community to go to another school. So, you thought
that what they were saying was, they can't ship us out of College Park, past College Park High to go to East
Point to South Fulton. But what it did, it gave the white community the impetus to turn up land and build a
school right in our community, that we couldn't go past, to go into College Park High...
MS:
Eva Thomas.
BS:
Eva Thomas.
MS:
Interesting.
BS:
Yes. And it became, you know, the first Black high school in College Park.
MS:
That's very interesting. I did not know that. Do you ever remember... we have on file these... we call them
choice forms. They sent these forms home. I don't know if they sent them home with students or mailed
them to parents that gave families, students, parents... This was part of when the like the federal
government was pressuring the Board of Education to desegregate. This was their answer to send home
forms, with the knowledge that nobody would choose a different school. Did that make sense? Do you
remember that?
BS:
Yes. And a part of the choice would have appeared to be ignorant on our parents’ behalf, if they had chosen
not to send us to a school that was right down the street, and brand new. And, you know, I'll bet so they,
they put all of the things in place to kind of void the choice.
MS:
Right.
BS:
[laughs] You know, it's just you would hate to... you would hate to say, "No, I'm not sending my child to a
brand-new school with brand new equipment and brand-new books and all of that," you know? It would
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�make you appear to be kind of stupid. So, they voided the choice that they set in place by building the
school right in our neighborhood. So yeah.
MS:
It's... it's one of the things that I've been, I've come to learn... and I've learned by being in proximity to all
these records and your stories like this and all these things. Though, if I had to convey the story to
somebody, I would say it's so complex, because here in Eva Thomas, and you see this later with the sit-ins.
This is a community school. This is a school, you've talked about community, the church, the school and all
the families, the village, you know, that, that raising all the children together, kind of… so, there's a sense of
pride in having that school. Right?
BS:
Yes.
MS:
...that you don't... because for years, you may have not had a great school to go to or you may have had
textbooks that were recycled, or what have you. So now you finally got this great thing. So, it's very
complex, because that great thing was put there to preserve a status quo.
BS:
Yes, exactly.
MS:
But we also... when it, when there's pressure and that school has to be, well, that school didn't have to be
closed, but it was chosen to be closed. So that's when the community rallies. It's like, you can't take this
right.
BS:
You've given it to us, we've chosen it. We've embraced it. And now you want to take it away. And that to me
was the ultimate insult. That was worse to me then segregation. I don't care if you don't want me to go to
your school. That, okay, so I'll get on a bus, and I'll go to South Fulton. And I don't care if you don't want me
to go to your school and you build a school in my neighborhood. But now that you have, and now that
you've named it after one of the most esteemed women in the community... Oh, my Lord, Miss Eva Louise
Thomas? Huh! If you didn't learn piano from her, you didn't learn. Yeah. She was just absolutely amazing.
And she was a stickler for people going to school in the civic education league that I talked about. She was
one of the founders of it. And they made sure that if a kid made Bs, sometimes even Cs, they were going to
college. They were going to go to somebody’s college somewhere. She helped people fill out applications
and apply for college. She got recommendation letters and things, things that some of us didn't know about.
She was just gung-ho on that. And to put her name on a building, and to let us finish off our education there.
And then to say, after all that, we've accepted all that, now you want to add insult to injury and close the
school and take her name off of it. And not just close it. I mean, they tore it down, brick by brick by brick.
And, you know, now it's a beautiful edifice there, standing there, I drive by it, sometimes now in my
melancholy state, just to reminisce. But the fact that they changed a community's life and lifestyle, and then
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�denied them the privilege to hold on to that. That was horrible to me. And we had, with the help of Morris
Dillard, God rest his soul. God rest his soul. He taught us how to do it in a more educated fashion, in the
fashion of Dr. King... where we were just mad, and we were going to be down there and not... "You can't
take this school! We're not going to let you." But he organized us, helped us get organized, and him and
Miss Lottie Miller, you know, they help get the students organized. Of course, I was away at college. I had to
come back.
MS:
Where you, were you... so you graduated in '67... these sit-ins took place two years later.
BS:
Yes.
MS:
Did you come back during the sit-in?
BS:
Yes.
MS:
Participate?
BS:
Yes, I came back. A lot of us did. Oh, yeah.
MS:
I had no idea that alum came back.
BS:
Oh yes.
MS:
I knew there was some parent participation and many of the students of course involved in this sit-in. Were
you in the gymnasium? We have, I've seen old newsreel. clapping and singing
BS:
Yes. Voices. Yes. I'm one of those voices. Yes.
MS:
What stands out to you... Go ahead. I'm sorry.
BS:
Jessica Allen
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�MS:
...Allen. Now Muhammad.
BS:
Oh, yes, that's right. I forgot that.
MS:
No. Well, I'm saying that because I've we've talked to her already. And I want our researchers if they engage
in both interviews...
BS:
She was wonderful with the students. She was, you know, she was a leader. She was, she was a leader in her
way in, and I just admired her. But we just, we stuck it out. There were there were times when we had to be
interviewed. The press came, you know. They couldn't believe that we were complaining. We had to get
people down there. I'm still looking at these pictures... [laughs]
MS:
She's looking at Paul D. West. He's the superintendent of Fulton County Schools at the time. So you knew
kind of who was doing what?
BS:
Yes.
MS:
Were you aware of the HEW, the federal government's pressure and all, all this push and pull going on?
BS:
Health, Education and Welfare. They did not understand why we were protesting. And even they, you
know, it was like, "Well, you don't have anything to do with this one," one gentleman said to me. You're not
even a student here. I was, I graduated here. This is my alumni. I am not just here to be here. I'm trying to
tell you guys that you're ruining the lives of people, who you're taking away our history. It wasn't
important enough to you, in the beginning to come down here, when we were denied access to College Park
High. And now that we want to hold on to our own memory, you're saying that we're wrong, and we're not
wrong, and we weren't wrong, then. It was just... it was really... you know, it was really bad. But we stopped
them for a while. You know, we were able to stop them for a while.
MS:
Is there any specific memory you have about the sit-in? I know, there was also a sit-in at the Office of the
Superintendent at some point. I know that... I think there was a march to the Cleveland Avenue building.
BS:
Yes.
- 28 -
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
�MS:
Did you participate? Were you... or was that while you're still in college?
BS:
I didn't participate in that particular march. Yeah, I was. I was away college. But that was I mean, you know,
just right up the road.
MS:
Were you at Spelman or...?
BS:
Yes. yes. I went to Spelman. And, you know, it was I think the most significant thing that I remembered
about it was that... all the students, you know... the ones that didn't do well, the ones that might have
flunked out... they still had a pride... we had a pride in keeping... in keeping it alive. It was something, that I
don't know, we just seemed to be so strong together. You know, the bullies, the basketball stars, the... the
choirs, leaders, everybody from all of the little nooks and crannies of College Park. You know, it wasn't so
much that we were all wonderful and the school was all wonderful, but it was ours. It was ours. And we did
good. Okay. I'm sorry.
MS:
No, no, no.
BS:
I didn't mean to get emotional.
MS:
No, it's okay, I had a box of tissues. I'm the one that should apologize.
BS:
You know? That's okay. I'm sorry.
MS:
No, not at all. Wow. So yeah, I got the I've gotten an impression when talking to all of you who have
participated, how organized it was. And I'd imagine I don't know how much you saw the news media,
newspaper or news accounts like on the TV. I mean, they were following it.
BS:
Oh, yeah.
MS:
Daily.
- 29 -
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
�BS:
Oh, yeah. Oh yeah, they were.
MS:
Well, what do you take away from that? You know, as you look back at it? And what would you tell maybe
our students or somebody younger about that? I guess the best question is, what do, what do you take away
from that? What impression is it left? As you look back now? Is there a lesson, or...
BS:
I think that... probably the biggest lesson for me personally, is that it is always good to speak up for what
you believe in. It is always good. No matter the final outcome, it is important to speak up for what you
believe in. And there's somebody that is listening. It might not be the Paul D. Wests of the world. But
somebody is listening. There was an... I don't remember this man's name, but he wrote a wonderful article
about the resilience. And I remember that word forever. The resilience of the students, when they
threatened to bring the police down, to move us off the campus... we stayed, we stayed. And we just kept
telling them that we just want to be heard. And I think it's always good to speak up and speak out for what
you believe in. And you know, even until this very day, even with every brick torn down from Eva L.
Thomas High School Bearcats ground, even with that, people still remember that we didn't let it go easy.
We didn't let it go and just shrug it off. We did let them know that that was wrong. And I think for that I'm
proud. I'm proud of each one of my classmates, each one of the students that came after me that just spoke
up. I'm proud.
MS:
The cool thing is, is that now we're here and you're sharing this, and our hope is to you know, that the that
lesson that that message is going to be out there now it's preserved. Yeah, you know, yeah. Well, thank you.
What else? Is there anything else that you want to share while we're recording that maybe I haven't talked
about? I mean, you mentioned in the hallway, knowing the Kings, correct me if I'm wrong.
BS:
Yes. Dr. King’s sister was my teacher at Spelman. Miss Christine. She's a very stately and elegant woman
now. But she could crack the whip in school. [laughs] But that I definitely remember with great joy, being
there. And another of my teachers had a very famous family member: Julian Bond's mother. Yes, she taught
at Spelman. She was the librarian, and I had my first job under her. I was, you know, to clerk at the library.
Got to make money, you got to eat. You know, scholarships are one thing, but they don't cover it all. So, that
was all good and all that was a result... my going to Spelman was a result of Dr... I told you about Dr.
McCree... his nurse, Nurse Jennings went to Spelman, and she introduced me to the Board so that I could get
my scholarship.
MS:
And so, you went there on scholarship?
BS:
Yeah?
- 30 -
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
�MS:
And you studied?
BS:
Yes. Psychology. Yes.
MS:
Wow.
BS:
Yeah. With double, a double major psychology and sociology. So, wow. But this has been...
MS:
Well, thank you.
- 31 -
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Description
An account of the resource
Oral Histories collected from alumni, students, teachers and staff of the Fulton County School System, 1980s-present.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Fulton County Schools Archives, Hapeville, Ga
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Michael Santrock
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Brenda Smith
Location
The location of the interview
Fulton County Schools Archives, Teaching Museum South, Hapeville, Georgia
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
1:21:42
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Oral History (transcript), Brenda Smith, November 30, 2021
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--Fulton County
College Park
East Point
Eva Thomas High School
South Fulton High School
segregation
integration
student
Description
An account of the resource
Brenda Smith is a native of College Park, Georgia, having grown up there in the 1950s and 60s. She attended Jefferson Franklin Beavers Elementary School, South Fulton High School (8th and 9th grades) and Eva Thomas High School (10th-12th), where she graduated in 1967 – a member of the second graduating class from that school. After high school, Smith pursued a degree in Psychology at Spelman College and subsequently, worked in the entertainment industry for 37 years.
A video recording of this oral history will be made available soon.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Fulton County Schools Archives
Mike Santrock
Brenda Smith
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Fulton County Schools Archives, Hapeville, Ga
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2021
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a><br />Direct questions regarding use to archives@fultonschools.org
Format
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Document-Transcript, 31 pages
Video recording (currently unavailable), 1:21:42
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
2021.ohfc.1
College Park
East Point
Eva Thomas High School
Jefferson Franklin Beavers Elementary School
segregation
South Fulton High School
Spelman College
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Fulton County Schools
Subject
The topic of the resource
Schools across Fulton County, 1871-present
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Fulton County Schools Archives, Hapeville, Ga
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains materials, records, images and other emphemera related to schools of Fulton County. The materials are from current schools as well as those that have been closed or consolidated.
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Booklet, paper
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
8"x11"
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Football Program, Eva Thomas High School, 1968
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--Fulton County
Football
Football players
Football coaches
Eva Thomas High School
St. Joseph High School
Football programs
Football players
Football coaches
Eva Thomas High School
Description
An account of the resource
This program lists players, coaches and sponsors for the football team in 1968, as well as previews this homecoming game.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Eva Thomas High School
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Fulton County Schools Archive, Hapeville, Georgia
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1968
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No restrictions</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Booklet, paper, 8"x11"
FCS Archives, FCS Schools, Eva Thomas HS, Box 1 folder 2
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
1968.fteh.1.2
Eva Thomas High School
Football
Program
sports
students
-
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fc9200d391018c75140c5a7f1b8da935
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Paul D. West papers, 1921-1974
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--Fulton County
School superintendent
Paul D. West
Description
An account of the resource
Paul D. West (1904-1974) served as superintendent of Fulton County Schools from 1947 to 1971. He had risen from a Spanish teacher at Fulton High School in 1924 and his service was uninterrupted except for a brief stint as field agent for the American Red Cross during World War II.
West graduated from Fulton High School in 1920 and entered Emory University where he earned his first degree by 1923. He would serve as alumni president later in life. AS a student, he also attended Oglethorpe University, the University of Virginia, Middlebury College (CT) and the Sorbonne in Paris.
West would serve as a principal and director of curriculum for Fulton County Schools before becoming superintendent upon the death of his predecessor, Jere A. Wells. He was also selected to serve on President Eisenhower's Committee on Intergovernmental Relations Education Committee (Kestnbaum Commission) in 1953. he also served as president of the Georgia Association of School Superintendents and Board Members, the Georgia Association of County School Superintendents, and the National Conference of County and Rural Area Schools.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Paul D. West
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Newspaper clipping
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
6"x15"
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
"Pupils Celebrate Eva Thomas 'Win'," Atlanta Journal, 13 September 1969
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--Fulton County
Article
Atlanta Journal
School superintendents
School integration
Student protesters
Eva Thomas High School
Paul D. West
Description
An account of the resource
This article chronicles the controversy over the closing of Eva Thomas High School by the Fulton County Board of Education in the wake of federally-mandated desegregation policies.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Atlanta Journal (Junie Brown)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Fulton County Schools Archives, Hapeville, Ga
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1969
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a><br />FCS Archives does not hold the copyright to material published by the Atlanta Journal and Constitution. Rights for use and reproduction are the responsibility of the researcher. For more information, http://www.ajcreprints.com.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Newspaper clipping, 6"x15"
FCS Archives Eva Thomas High School Collection, Shelf G-4-3, Box 1 Folder 3
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
1969.fteh.1.3.26
The FCS Archives collections contain historical materials that are products of the time they were created and therefore, reflect the society of that time. Some items contain language that users could find inappropriate or offensive. These items have been retained in their original form to preserve the historic integrity and as a means to foster learning form our collective past. The FCS Archives does not endorse the views as related through these items. Please contact the archives staff at archives@fultonschools.org with any questions or concerns related to this statement.
desegregation
Eva Thomas High School
integration
newspapers
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Paul D. West papers, 1921-1974
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--Fulton County
School superintendent
Paul D. West
Description
An account of the resource
Paul D. West (1904-1974) served as superintendent of Fulton County Schools from 1947 to 1971. He had risen from a Spanish teacher at Fulton High School in 1924 and his service was uninterrupted except for a brief stint as field agent for the American Red Cross during World War II.
West graduated from Fulton High School in 1920 and entered Emory University where he earned his first degree by 1923. He would serve as alumni president later in life. AS a student, he also attended Oglethorpe University, the University of Virginia, Middlebury College (CT) and the Sorbonne in Paris.
West would serve as a principal and director of curriculum for Fulton County Schools before becoming superintendent upon the death of his predecessor, Jere A. Wells. He was also selected to serve on President Eisenhower's Committee on Intergovernmental Relations Education Committee (Kestnbaum Commission) in 1953. he also served as president of the Georgia Association of School Superintendents and Board Members, the Georgia Association of County School Superintendents, and the National Conference of County and Rural Area Schools.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Paul D. West
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Newspaper clipping
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
11.5"x20"
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
"Protesters Routed Twice," Atlanta Constitution, 30 August 1969
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--Fulton County
Article
Atlanta Constitution
School superintendents
School integration
Student protesters
Eva Thomas High School
Paul D. West
Description
An account of the resource
This article chronicles the controversy over the closing of Eva Thomas High School by the Fulton County Board of Education in the wake of federally-mandated desegregation policies.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Atlanta Constitution (Mike Bowler)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Fulton County Schools Archives, Hapeville, Ga
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1969
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a><br />FCS Archives does not hold the copyright to material published by the Atlanta Journal and Constitution. Rights for use and reproduction are the responsibility of the researcher. For more information, http://www.ajcreprints.com.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Newspaper clipping, 11.5"x20"
FCS Archives Eva Thomas High School Collection, Shelf G-4-3, Box 1 Folder 3
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
1969.fteh.1.3.12
The FCS Archives collections contain historical materials that are products of the time they were created and therefore, reflect the society of that time. Some items contain language that users could find inappropriate or offensive. These items have been retained in their original form to preserve the historic integrity and as a means to foster learning form our collective past. The FCS Archives does not endorse the views as related through these items. Please contact the archives staff at archives@fultonschools.org with any questions or concerns related to this statement.
desegregation
Eva Thomas High School
integration
newspapers
-
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bab589c5c31ae2ec06f5eedac0a9955c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Paul D. West papers, 1921-1974
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--Fulton County
School superintendent
Paul D. West
Description
An account of the resource
Paul D. West (1904-1974) served as superintendent of Fulton County Schools from 1947 to 1971. He had risen from a Spanish teacher at Fulton High School in 1924 and his service was uninterrupted except for a brief stint as field agent for the American Red Cross during World War II.
West graduated from Fulton High School in 1920 and entered Emory University where he earned his first degree by 1923. He would serve as alumni president later in life. AS a student, he also attended Oglethorpe University, the University of Virginia, Middlebury College (CT) and the Sorbonne in Paris.
West would serve as a principal and director of curriculum for Fulton County Schools before becoming superintendent upon the death of his predecessor, Jere A. Wells. He was also selected to serve on President Eisenhower's Committee on Intergovernmental Relations Education Committee (Kestnbaum Commission) in 1953. he also served as president of the Georgia Association of School Superintendents and Board Members, the Georgia Association of County School Superintendents, and the National Conference of County and Rural Area Schools.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Paul D. West
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Newspaper clipping
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
20"x22"
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
"West's Office Evicts Pupils," Atlanta Constitution, 10 September 1969
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--Fulton County
Article
Atlanta Constitution
School superintendents
School integration
Student protesters
Eva Thomas High School
Paul D. West
Description
An account of the resource
This article chronicles the controversy over the closing of Eva Thomas High School by the Fulton County Board of Education in the wake of federally-mandated desegregation policies.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Atlanta Constitution (Mike Bowler)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Fulton County Schools Archives, Hapeville, Ga
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1969
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a><br />FCS Archives does not hold the copyright to material published by the Atlanta Journal and Constitution. Rights for use and reproduction are the responsibility of the researcher. For more information, http://www.ajcreprints.com.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Newspaper clipping, 20"x22"
FCS Archives Eva Thomas High School Collection, Shelf G-4-3, Box 1 Folder 3
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
1969.fteh.1.3.20
The FCS Archives collections contain historical materials that are products of the time they were created and therefore, reflect the society of that time. Some items contain language that users could find inappropriate or offensive. These items have been retained in their original form to preserve the historic integrity and as a means to foster learning form our collective past. The FCS Archives does not endorse the views as related through these items. Please contact the archives staff at archives@fultonschools.org with any questions or concerns related to this statement.
desegregation
Eva Thomas High School
integration
newspapers
-
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7b3f3eaddf829e1fab450e2abc158ba0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Paul D. West papers, 1921-1974
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--Fulton County
School superintendent
Paul D. West
Description
An account of the resource
Paul D. West (1904-1974) served as superintendent of Fulton County Schools from 1947 to 1971. He had risen from a Spanish teacher at Fulton High School in 1924 and his service was uninterrupted except for a brief stint as field agent for the American Red Cross during World War II.
West graduated from Fulton High School in 1920 and entered Emory University where he earned his first degree by 1923. He would serve as alumni president later in life. AS a student, he also attended Oglethorpe University, the University of Virginia, Middlebury College (CT) and the Sorbonne in Paris.
West would serve as a principal and director of curriculum for Fulton County Schools before becoming superintendent upon the death of his predecessor, Jere A. Wells. He was also selected to serve on President Eisenhower's Committee on Intergovernmental Relations Education Committee (Kestnbaum Commission) in 1953. he also served as president of the Georgia Association of School Superintendents and Board Members, the Georgia Association of County School Superintendents, and the National Conference of County and Rural Area Schools.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Paul D. West
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Newspaper clipping
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
8"x15"
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
"Sit-in Becomes Sleep-in at Thomas School," Atlanta Constitution, 28 August 1969
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--Fulton County
Article
Atlanta Constitution
School superintendents
School integration
Student protesters
Eva Thomas High School
Paul D. West
Description
An account of the resource
This article chronicles the controversy over the closing of Eva Thomas High School by the Fulton County Board of Education in the wake of federally-mandated desegregation policies.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Atlanta Constitution (Mike Bowler)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Fulton County Schools Archives, Hapeville, Ga
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1969
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a><br />FCS Archives does not hold the copyright to material published by the Atlanta Journal and Constitution. Rights for use and reproduction are the responsibility of the researcher. For more information, http://www.ajcreprints.com.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Newspaper clipping, 8"x15"
FCS Archives Eva Thomas High School Collection, Shelf G-4-3, Box 1 Folder 3
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
1969.fteh.1.3.10
The FCS Archives collections contain historical materials that are products of the time they were created and therefore, reflect the society of that time. Some items contain language that users could find inappropriate or offensive. These items have been retained in their original form to preserve the historic integrity and as a means to foster learning form our collective past. The FCS Archives does not endorse the views as related through these items. Please contact the archives staff at archives@fultonschools.org with any questions or concerns related to this statement.
desegregation
Eva Thomas High School
integration
newspapers
-
https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/40118/archive/files/61a856f40b6f98abc660a25c82a03eb7.jpg?Expires=1712793600&Signature=sYXuEoPY5iITm%7EJ1Fs6wjZbJMKhYBEdTbmCPxSMbnntI0NMzIQO7qzGgq230MHbj8UF0ZjHRRr-oAUYoTkJENt-azv%7Eud04xczpHe6tlrt1XxD3-bdSPeWTX5hb%7EGQmTrpffT32ocTvasloFRLdYJeQDu8IkU7o%7E9UsHutY8Z5-GSxzCrjY9slc9NxYuN%7EZVUzn4P%7ElKZHAzGy1w-UtIfmu5n%7ESUmSki-v3y7ZrSzvXjhw%7EGsce2PiDNBP4BQHV9i1f-jg7MhLs8Org0Q2SOlnaBl6XL2vedwiflTRQuDE6gAeS0BiRW1EjYVWWH96ByJFvSj21BBs9QKEM6jYY%7E%7Ew__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM
5fc912b45e1491ede016740b9bd46e76
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Paul D. West papers, 1921-1974
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--Fulton County
School superintendent
Paul D. West
Description
An account of the resource
Paul D. West (1904-1974) served as superintendent of Fulton County Schools from 1947 to 1971. He had risen from a Spanish teacher at Fulton High School in 1924 and his service was uninterrupted except for a brief stint as field agent for the American Red Cross during World War II.
West graduated from Fulton High School in 1920 and entered Emory University where he earned his first degree by 1923. He would serve as alumni president later in life. AS a student, he also attended Oglethorpe University, the University of Virginia, Middlebury College (CT) and the Sorbonne in Paris.
West would serve as a principal and director of curriculum for Fulton County Schools before becoming superintendent upon the death of his predecessor, Jere A. Wells. He was also selected to serve on President Eisenhower's Committee on Intergovernmental Relations Education Committee (Kestnbaum Commission) in 1953. he also served as president of the Georgia Association of School Superintendents and Board Members, the Georgia Association of County School Superintendents, and the National Conference of County and Rural Area Schools.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Paul D. West
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Newspaper clipping
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
9"x16"
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
"Idea to Close Eva Thomas High Didn't Come from HEW Office, Atlanta Journal and Constitution, 24 August 1969
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--Fulton County
Article
Atlanta Journal and Constitution
School superintendents
School integration
Student protesters
Eva Thomas High School
Paul D. West
Description
An account of the resource
This article describes the decision to close a high school in the wake of federally-mandated desegregation of all public schools.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Atlanta Journal and Constitution (David Nordan)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Fulton County Schools Archives, Hapeville, Ga
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1969
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a><br />FCS Archives does not hold the copyright to material published by the Atlanta Journal and Constitution. Rights for use and reproduction are the responsibility of the researcher. For more information, http://www.ajcreprints.com
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Newspaper clipping, 9"x16"
FCS Archives Eva Thomas High School Collection, Shelf G-4-3, Box 1 Folder 3
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
1969.fteh.1.3.6
The FCS Archives collections contain historical materials that are products of the time they were created and therefore, reflect the society of that time. Some items contain language that users could find inappropriate or offensive. These items have been retained in their original form to preserve the historic integrity and as a means to foster learning form our collective past. The FCS Archives does not endorse the views as related through these items. Please contact the archives staff at archives@fultonschools.org with any questions or concerns related to this statement.
desegregation
Eva Thomas High School
integration
newspapers
-
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c28cfafcecc601867747a103dc0e837f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Paul D. West papers, 1921-1974
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--Fulton County
School superintendent
Paul D. West
Description
An account of the resource
Paul D. West (1904-1974) served as superintendent of Fulton County Schools from 1947 to 1971. He had risen from a Spanish teacher at Fulton High School in 1924 and his service was uninterrupted except for a brief stint as field agent for the American Red Cross during World War II.
West graduated from Fulton High School in 1920 and entered Emory University where he earned his first degree by 1923. He would serve as alumni president later in life. AS a student, he also attended Oglethorpe University, the University of Virginia, Middlebury College (CT) and the Sorbonne in Paris.
West would serve as a principal and director of curriculum for Fulton County Schools before becoming superintendent upon the death of his predecessor, Jere A. Wells. He was also selected to serve on President Eisenhower's Committee on Intergovernmental Relations Education Committee (Kestnbaum Commission) in 1953. he also served as president of the Georgia Association of School Superintendents and Board Members, the Georgia Association of County School Superintendents, and the National Conference of County and Rural Area Schools.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Paul D. West
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Newspaper clipping
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
8.5"x14"
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
"Fulton Bows to HEW to Close High School," Atlanta Constitution, 30 July 1969
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--Fulton County
Article
Atlanta Constitution
School superintendents
School integration
Student protesters
Eva Thomas High School
Paul D. West
Description
An account of the resource
This newspaper article appeared in the July 30 edition of the Atlanta Constitution and chronicles the controversial decision to close a high school in the wake of federally-mandated desegregation policies.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Atlanta Constitution (Bob Rohrer and Duane Riner)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Fulton County Schools Archives, Hapeville, Ga
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1969
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a><br />FCS Archives does not hold the copyright to material published by the Atlanta Constitution. Rights for use and reproduction are the responsibility of the researcher. For more information, http://www.ajcreprints.com.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Newspaper clipping, 8.5"x14"
FCS Archives Newspaper Collection, Shelf G-4-3, Box 1 Folder 3
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
1969.fteh.1.3.3
The FCS Archives collections contain historical materials that are products of the time they were created and therefore, reflect the society of that time. Some items contain language that users could find inappropriate or offensive. These items have been retained in their original form to preserve the historic integrity and as a means to foster learning form our collective past. The FCS Archives does not endorse the views as related through these items. Please contact the archives staff at archives@fultonschools.org with any questions or concerns related to this statement.
desegregation
Eva Thomas High School
integration
newspapers
-
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bf68519fdd1c637f195facbc882de97e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Paul D. West papers, 1921-1974
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--Fulton County
School superintendent
Paul D. West
Description
An account of the resource
Paul D. West (1904-1974) served as superintendent of Fulton County Schools from 1947 to 1971. He had risen from a Spanish teacher at Fulton High School in 1924 and his service was uninterrupted except for a brief stint as field agent for the American Red Cross during World War II.
West graduated from Fulton High School in 1920 and entered Emory University where he earned his first degree by 1923. He would serve as alumni president later in life. AS a student, he also attended Oglethorpe University, the University of Virginia, Middlebury College (CT) and the Sorbonne in Paris.
West would serve as a principal and director of curriculum for Fulton County Schools before becoming superintendent upon the death of his predecessor, Jere A. Wells. He was also selected to serve on President Eisenhower's Committee on Intergovernmental Relations Education Committee (Kestnbaum Commission) in 1953. he also served as president of the Georgia Association of School Superintendents and Board Members, the Georgia Association of County School Superintendents, and the National Conference of County and Rural Area Schools.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Paul D. West
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Paper-based document
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
Letter, 8.5"x11." Attached cartoon clipping, 5"x3.5"
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
A. Turner McDonald to Paul D. West, 6 May 1969
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--Fulton County
Correspondence
School superintendents
School integration
Paul D. West
A. Turner McDonald
Description
An account of the resource
This correspondence is a letter from Fulton County Director of Public Works, A. Turner McDonald, following the publishing of a cartoon depicting the superintendent, U.S. Congressman Fletcher Thompson, 5th District and a representative of the federal governments's Department of Health, Education and Welfare.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Superintendent Paul D. West, A. Turner McDonald, Atlanta Constitution (Clifford "Baldy" Baldowski)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Fulton County Schools Archives, Hapeville, Ga
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1969
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Letter, no restrictions. <br />Cartoon, <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> <br />FCS Archives does not hold the copyright to material published by the Atlanta Constitution. Rights for use and reproduction are the responsibility of the researcher.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Document, paper, 8.5"x11", newspaper clipping, 5"x3.5"
FCS Archives Superintendents Collection, Shelf B-2-5, Box 12 Folder 1
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
1969.supt.12.1.17
correspondence
desegregation
Eva Thomas High School
integration
-
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99203417718d6841cc8d038f35ccde5d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Paul D. West papers, 1921-1974
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--Fulton County
School superintendent
Paul D. West
Description
An account of the resource
Paul D. West (1904-1974) served as superintendent of Fulton County Schools from 1947 to 1971. He had risen from a Spanish teacher at Fulton High School in 1924 and his service was uninterrupted except for a brief stint as field agent for the American Red Cross during World War II.
West graduated from Fulton High School in 1920 and entered Emory University where he earned his first degree by 1923. He would serve as alumni president later in life. AS a student, he also attended Oglethorpe University, the University of Virginia, Middlebury College (CT) and the Sorbonne in Paris.
West would serve as a principal and director of curriculum for Fulton County Schools before becoming superintendent upon the death of his predecessor, Jere A. Wells. He was also selected to serve on President Eisenhower's Committee on Intergovernmental Relations Education Committee (Kestnbaum Commission) in 1953. he also served as president of the Georgia Association of School Superintendents and Board Members, the Georgia Association of County School Superintendents, and the National Conference of County and Rural Area Schools.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Paul D. West
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Paper-based document
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
8.5"x11"
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Walter M. Callaway to Paul D. West, 29 April 1969
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--Fulton County
Correspondence
School superintendents
School integration
Paul D. West
Walter M. Callaway
Description
An account of the resource
This correspondence is in response to the superintendent's and school board's policy for desegregating the public schools of Fulton County. Mr. Callaway's vocation or relation to the school board is unknown.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Paul D. West, Walter M. Callaway
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Fulton County Schools Archives, Hapeville, Ga
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1969
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No restrictions</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Document, paper, 8.5"x11"
FCS Archives Superintendent's Collection, Shelf B-2-5, Box 12 Folder 1
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
1969.supt.12.1.8
correspondence
desegregation
Eva Thomas High School
integration
-
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034a54e48459406ea373b1b2832ea500
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Paul D. West papers, 1921-1974
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--Fulton County
School superintendent
Paul D. West
Description
An account of the resource
Paul D. West (1904-1974) served as superintendent of Fulton County Schools from 1947 to 1971. He had risen from a Spanish teacher at Fulton High School in 1924 and his service was uninterrupted except for a brief stint as field agent for the American Red Cross during World War II.
West graduated from Fulton High School in 1920 and entered Emory University where he earned his first degree by 1923. He would serve as alumni president later in life. AS a student, he also attended Oglethorpe University, the University of Virginia, Middlebury College (CT) and the Sorbonne in Paris.
West would serve as a principal and director of curriculum for Fulton County Schools before becoming superintendent upon the death of his predecessor, Jere A. Wells. He was also selected to serve on President Eisenhower's Committee on Intergovernmental Relations Education Committee (Kestnbaum Commission) in 1953. he also served as president of the Georgia Association of School Superintendents and Board Members, the Georgia Association of County School Superintendents, and the National Conference of County and Rural Area Schools.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Paul D. West
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Paper-based document
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
8.5"x11"
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Carolyn Kilpatrick to Dr. Paul D. West
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--Fulton County
Correspondence
School superintendents
School integration
Paul D. West
Carolyn Kilpatrick
Description
An account of the resource
This letter, from Mrs. Kilpatrick of East Point, is in response to the superintendent's stand on desegregating the public schools of Fulton County.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Superintendent Paul D. West, Carolyn Kilpatrick
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Fulton County Schools Archives, Hapeville, Ga
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1969
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No restrictions</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Document, paper, 8.5X11"
FCS Archives Superintendents Collection, Shelf B-2-5 Folder 1
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
1969.supt.12.1.7
correspondence
desegregation
Eva Thomas High School
integration
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Paul D. West papers, 1921-1974
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--Fulton County
School superintendent
Paul D. West
Description
An account of the resource
Paul D. West (1904-1974) served as superintendent of Fulton County Schools from 1947 to 1971. He had risen from a Spanish teacher at Fulton High School in 1924 and his service was uninterrupted except for a brief stint as field agent for the American Red Cross during World War II.
West graduated from Fulton High School in 1920 and entered Emory University where he earned his first degree by 1923. He would serve as alumni president later in life. AS a student, he also attended Oglethorpe University, the University of Virginia, Middlebury College (CT) and the Sorbonne in Paris.
West would serve as a principal and director of curriculum for Fulton County Schools before becoming superintendent upon the death of his predecessor, Jere A. Wells. He was also selected to serve on President Eisenhower's Committee on Intergovernmental Relations Education Committee (Kestnbaum Commission) in 1953. he also served as president of the Georgia Association of School Superintendents and Board Members, the Georgia Association of County School Superintendents, and the National Conference of County and Rural Area Schools.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Paul D. West
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Paper-based document
Physical Dimensions
The actual physical size of the original image
8.5"x11" (2 pages)
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Statement Adopted by the Fulton County Board of Education at a Special Meeting, 1966
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--Fulton County
Fulton County Board of Education
School integration
Choice plan
Description
An account of the resource
This document outlines the opposing positions between the federal government's Department of Health, Education and Welfare and the Fulton County Board of Education in the spring of 1966. At issue was the manner and the timeline in which the school system would implement its plan for desegregation.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Fulton County Board of Education
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Fulton County Schools Archives, Hapeville, Ga
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1966
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No restrictions</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Document, paper, 2 pages, 8.5"x11"
FCS Archives Superintendent Collection, Shelf B-2-5, Box 12, Folder 1
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
1969.supt.12.1.1
correspondence
desegregation
Eva Thomas High School
integration